Adlerdriver

Mkay.... If you get cleared for a STAR, sooner or later you're going to get an altitude clearance. As I already mentioned, it's kind of unusual to get cleared for the STAR without any kind of descent clearance along with it. I supposed that's possible initially, but sooner or later that needs to change.

If they clear you for the STAR, you comply with the speeds. If they clear you for the STAR and to cross a down range fix on the STAR at an altitude and there are intermediate fixes between you and that fix with published speeds and/or altitudes, you comply with both. If the downrange fix and the altitude they clear you to cross is the last one on the STAR, they've essentially given you a "descend via" clearance whether they say those exact words or not. I don't really understand why we're making this difficult.

GogglesPisano

Comply with published speeds unless otherwise cleared.

Comply with altitudes only if cleared to descend/climb via STAR's/SID's.


Yes it really is that simple.

Tell your captain Goggles Pisano said so.

Delay Apology

Are you in the United States?
Kind of scary man.

Adlerdriver

We're obviously having a communication issue. What is it you find scary about being cleared to a lower altitude on a STAR and complying with other intermediate restrictions during your descent to your clearance limit?

Adlerdriver

OK Goggles. Maybe I need an example to clarify.

You're at FL300. ATC clears you for the FYTTE 4 RNAV arrival into ORD. "Goggles, you're cleared direct MYRRS, cleared FYTTE 4 RNAV arrival-MYRRS transition, cross FYTTE at 11,000, 250 knots"

They don't say "Descend via".

Are you going to comply with the 3 intermediate restrictions (at BHAWK, CUUPP and CLSBY) between MYRRS and FYTTE or not?

foumanchu

Look at AIM 5-4-1 1.

1. STAR procedures may have mandatory
speeds and/or crossing altitudes published. Other
STARs may have planning information depicted to
inform pilots what clearances or restrictions to “expect.”
“Expect” altitudes/speeds are not considered
STAR procedures crossing restrictions unless verbally
issued by ATC. Published speed restrictions are
independent of altitude restrictions and are mandatory
unless modified by ATC. Pilots should plan to
cross waypoints with a published speed restriction, at
the published speed, and should not exceed this speed
past the associated waypoint unless authorized by
ATC or a published note to do so.

And then later on:

NOTE−
1. When otherwise cleared along a route or procedure that
contains published speed restrictions, the pilot must comply
with those speed restrictions independent of any
descend via clearance.

GogglesPisano

In the example above I would comply with all published speeds and the verbal restriction given at FYTTE. Since no “descend via” was issued any published altitudes are irrelevant.

I think you and I are on the same page here (see earlier posts.)

Now in Canada on the other hand...

Adlerdriver

I guess I haven't viewed the lack of "descend via" as liberally as that. Not that I don't value your expertise, but do you have a reference that spells that out pretty clearly? The AIM reference previously posted wouldn't give me a warm fuzzy that I could ignore published STAR restrictions just because ATC didn't say a specific phrase.
If someone asked me before your post, I would have said that I would comply with all the restrictions if given the clearance I used in the example. Certainly not "scary" and wouldn't get me violated by complying with intermediate altitudes on my way to 11,000, just not necessary based on your answer.

Before the emphasis on "descend via" clearances that have become a thing over the last few year, would you have given the same answer to my question?
I ask because I used to fly into ORD all the time (15 years ago) and receive a similar clearance to my example for one of the many STARs. We used to comply with all published restrictions on the STAR routing because......we were cleared for the STAR and they were part of it. Would you say our compliance was unnecessary back then as well?

Adlerdriver

By the way, nice first post. I wonder what your other user name(s) are here.

EasternATC

From FAAH 7110.65x, para. 4-5-7:


NOTE
−
1. Considering the principle that the last ATC clearance
issued has precedence over the previous, the phraseology
“maintain (altitude)” alone cancels previously issued
altitude restrictions, including SID/STAR altitude
restrictions unless they are restated or modified, and
authorizes an unrestricted climb or descent. Speed
restrictions remain in effect unless
the controller explicitly
cancels the speed restrictions.