Citation X Question
#21
...Aerion believes it will be able to operate over the US above Mach 1 with the right atmospheric conditions . Due to the aerodynamics, Aerion also says it will be able to operate efficiently regardless of super or subsonic.
Back when Douglas, Boeing and others were looking at the SST, most were around M 2.5-2.8 for sustained cruise as I remember. They could have targeted a higher mach with resulting higher costs for design, engine, etc but they found the real limiting factor for such a design was not speed but rather turn-around time. It took x amount of time to turn the machine around and thus going .xx faster really didn't pay for the additional complexities.
#22
This topic came up about 6 months ago. I am dubious the Aerion jet will get off the ground not for design issues, but for the lack of units required to make back the development cost. As a rule of thumb, you have to sell 75 or more of a new airplane design to begin to make back your investment. Concord lost money, every single one of the airliner SSJs designed by the big manufacturers was abandoned except Concord, and it will be the same story with this airplane. If it even reaches production I think it will be a loser financially. The only reason it is getting as far as it is has to do with novelty mostly.
More doubts arise on this issue, and as Rick pointed out it will require a big rule change to even be possible.
Do you mean wide turning radius at high speed cruise?
Concorde was and still is an astonishing accomplishment. It *cruised* at Mach 2 when few fighters could cruise at 0.9. And the propulsion system is one I still have to marvel at. You went into burner and accelerated. At around 1.4 you verified the ramps were working and around 1.7 you could come out of burner (reheat for the Brits) and it would continue to accelerate to about 2.01. At that time, the shock wave, ramps and nozzles were producing most of the thrust. I think they said the engine was producing less than 20% of total thrust. Distance from the ramps which controlled the supersonic air to the engines was about 20ft.
The engineers panel was a maze of indicators with measurements reflecting all different scales (C, F, PSI, N). Even an indicator for radiation levels. The F/E said, "This is a typical British airplane with 13 fuel tanks numbered 1 through 11..."
Many are not aware that Concorde was an analog fly-by-wire and initial concepts included a side stick controller.
Here is a page from the FAA on Supersonics:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...ersonic_noise/
#23
This thread is way out of date (two years and running), but here is a recent clip on the Aerion project.
#24
Is it safe to say the X never exceeded mach 1.0? There are so many aerodynamic reasons it isn't plausible. I hear these stories frequently, but like UALT38 said, turbine engines without inlet mods don't like supersonic air.
#25
N750CX very certainly did break the sound barrier during testing. Not a secret, something Cessna is quite proud of. One source among many supporting this fact can be found in The Legend of Cessna by Jeff Rodengen, page 218. This airplane consistently achieved M=0.99 although a dive was required to go faster.
#26
I do not have access to that book. I can't find any reputable sources online indicating the CE-750 had ever exceeded mach 1.0. I believe if Cessna were so proud, they would indicate so on their website. Also, a dive results in an increase in temperature thereby raising the indicated airspeed required to attain mach 1. Paste a link, and I'll concede.
#27
Legend of Cessna (Amazon) -best I can do at the moment, although I'll look around for something else...maybe .
#30
Here's a narrative about the GV exceeding the speed of sound:
While it was not the intention of Gulfstream Flight Test to take a subsonic design to supersonic speeds, the jet did in fact go supersonic. No one would intentionally take a transport category jet designed for subsonic flight beyond Mach 1.00. Subsonic wings are designed using the Navier-Stokes equation and Computational Fluid Dynamics to be just that: subsonic. Supersonic wings designed for non-compressible airflow differ significantly in strength and design. Additionally, on aircraft that do not have an all-moving tail the first thing that occurs at Mach 1.00 is a shock wave forms up at 50% chord on the horizontal stabilizer which negates the effectiveness of any flight control operating behind it. Subsequently, pitch control can be lost.
The GV went to 1.07 Mach during developmental test with an FAA pilot from the Atlanta ACO at the controls. One of the stability tests that is done during "cert " is to simulate runaway trim. In the GV, the aircraft is accelerated to Vc at 51,000 feet (0.86 mach), trimmed for hands - off flight, the trim is then run nosedown for 3 seconds, and then the test pilot is allowed to recover the resulting maneuver. After demonstrating that you can do this point, the FAA is invited to come fly the point themselves and verify it. The FAR requires that neither "exceptional piloting, strength or skill" be required to fly these points - this is the part that the FAA pilots demonstrate best.
On the day when the GV "made the number" the FAA test pilot was in the left seat to verify this runaway trim point. Initially, all went well. The jet was accelerated to 0.86 mach and trimmed for hands-off flight at 51,000 feet. The trim was then run nosedown for 3 seconds. Events began to trend badly when the FAA pilot was told, "You got it, recover." He was reticent to pull back on the yoke at that altitude and speed. As a result, the aircraft quickly accelerated to 0.99 Mach. Seeing this, FAA pilot promptly announced to the Gulfstream test pilot, "You got it!"
We learned that day that the EFIS displays only show 0.99 Mach as a maximum. When the Steely-Eyed Gulfstream Test Pilot pulled back on the yoke - nothing happened. The flight test engineers in the back advised him that their instrumentation was showing 1.04 mach (the real time telemetry streaming to Gulfstream flight test operations was showing 1.07 mach).
The elevators were ineffective because they were operating behind a well established mid-span shock wave on the horizontal stab. The GV has a fully movable emergency stabilizer, but it is not designed for supersonic flight. A good test pilot never does add-on testing, so our SEGTP elected not to use the EMER STAB. He rightly thought, "We are descending. As we do so temperature will increase and with it the speed of sound. If I just hang on the aircraft will go subsonic and I will regain pitch control" - which is precisely what happened in the high 30's.
It is significant to note that while operating above the speed of sound the wing manifested no adverse Mach effects - no roll-off, control "snatching" or pronounced "buzzing".
While it was not the intention of Gulfstream Flight Test to take a subsonic design to supersonic speeds, the jet did in fact go supersonic. No one would intentionally take a transport category jet designed for subsonic flight beyond Mach 1.00. Subsonic wings are designed using the Navier-Stokes equation and Computational Fluid Dynamics to be just that: subsonic. Supersonic wings designed for non-compressible airflow differ significantly in strength and design. Additionally, on aircraft that do not have an all-moving tail the first thing that occurs at Mach 1.00 is a shock wave forms up at 50% chord on the horizontal stabilizer which negates the effectiveness of any flight control operating behind it. Subsequently, pitch control can be lost.
The GV went to 1.07 Mach during developmental test with an FAA pilot from the Atlanta ACO at the controls. One of the stability tests that is done during "cert " is to simulate runaway trim. In the GV, the aircraft is accelerated to Vc at 51,000 feet (0.86 mach), trimmed for hands - off flight, the trim is then run nosedown for 3 seconds, and then the test pilot is allowed to recover the resulting maneuver. After demonstrating that you can do this point, the FAA is invited to come fly the point themselves and verify it. The FAR requires that neither "exceptional piloting, strength or skill" be required to fly these points - this is the part that the FAA pilots demonstrate best.
On the day when the GV "made the number" the FAA test pilot was in the left seat to verify this runaway trim point. Initially, all went well. The jet was accelerated to 0.86 mach and trimmed for hands-off flight at 51,000 feet. The trim was then run nosedown for 3 seconds. Events began to trend badly when the FAA pilot was told, "You got it, recover." He was reticent to pull back on the yoke at that altitude and speed. As a result, the aircraft quickly accelerated to 0.99 Mach. Seeing this, FAA pilot promptly announced to the Gulfstream test pilot, "You got it!"
We learned that day that the EFIS displays only show 0.99 Mach as a maximum. When the Steely-Eyed Gulfstream Test Pilot pulled back on the yoke - nothing happened. The flight test engineers in the back advised him that their instrumentation was showing 1.04 mach (the real time telemetry streaming to Gulfstream flight test operations was showing 1.07 mach).
The elevators were ineffective because they were operating behind a well established mid-span shock wave on the horizontal stab. The GV has a fully movable emergency stabilizer, but it is not designed for supersonic flight. A good test pilot never does add-on testing, so our SEGTP elected not to use the EMER STAB. He rightly thought, "We are descending. As we do so temperature will increase and with it the speed of sound. If I just hang on the aircraft will go subsonic and I will regain pitch control" - which is precisely what happened in the high 30's.
It is significant to note that while operating above the speed of sound the wing manifested no adverse Mach effects - no roll-off, control "snatching" or pronounced "buzzing".
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