Did Boeing drop a huge market with the 717?
 

PREFACE: I know this is a pilot forum, but I'm hoping non-pilots (I've been meaning to get my license, but never seem to find the time), with aerospace technical background, are welcome. I'm a heavy traveler and former defense (aerospace) engineer, so I've been around avionics and 6DOF concepts. So I take a keen interest in equipment, safety records and general business. I came to this board via Google Search for Allegiant Air (first post)

This has been bothering me for a few years, especially as I've flown on Boeing 717s more than probably any other aircraft in the 21st century.

I was at Boeing (working on defense, mainly F-15/18 and other things I can't talk about) when Boeing officially ended the 717 line. To me, it always seemed to have under-marketed (virtually not at all?) the 717-200 as it was introduced alongside the newer 737 models, as if they competed. Only AirTran seemed to be a major customer, as a replacement for their aged, largely ex-Delta DC-9s. And yet the 787-800/900s were larger capacity and range versus the 717, so I don't understand why it wasn't marketed along side it? They didn't really compete. Did Boeing just sell enough 717s to recoup the development costs of the MD-95 after taking over MD? Still, I'm scratching my head on the utter lack of marketing on the unit.

It's obvious that a 100+ passenger with 1,000-1,500 range aircraft is still a big seller. Embraer's E-190/195 series is proof of that. I've now flown on those via JetBlue and United and noted several, major carriers are adopting them. They're really not much cheaper than the 717 was, and in all honesty, flying on the Embraer still scares me to death. I can understand the E-135/140/145, given any smaller, regional jet, but I cringe a little too much when I've booked JetBlue into IAD, and often opt for AirTran to BWI anymore. It seems that Boeing just left a huge market to be filled by Embraer, especially since the A318 is far more costly (and most airliners might as well look to the 737 or A320 instead).

Although it was post-termination and hindsight, the departure record (99.6%) that AirTran and the few 717 operators achieved over a few years is still a testament to the aircraft. What can be replaced on the equipment in 15 minutes or less is remarkable. It seems like the MD-95 design was the ultimate DC-9/Super-8 lineage ever, unlike what can be said in the newer designs like the Embraer E-190/195 that are still proving themselves.

Another thing I've noticed is that the Boeing 717 is cleared to fly through all sorts of weather where anything Embraer and even larger AirBus A319/320 aircraft cannot. I've been grounded due to weather on JetBlue A320 and E-195 aircraft in Boston and New York and have been quick enough to get the last few seats on an AirTran 717. I've switched my destination to White Plains to catch an open window for the 717 as well. It's almost like the Super 8s, with the 717 as the ultimate, was the "Pony Car" of the skys.

So, I ask those of you that have drivens ome of the equipment I've mentioned, what do you think of the 717? Both in handling as well as the decision by Boeing to built and sell it only to shut down the line? Do you think it was undermarketed as well? How about those of you driving the Embraer E-190/195? How do you feel about it versus the Super-8 class, especially the 717?

I think when the decisions were made, the 100 seat market was not very viable. Scope did not allow regionals to fly airplanes that large, and mainline pilots probably wanted too much money.

By the time the majors were able to cut pay for 90+ seaters at mainline, the 717 was somewhat older technology.

Also boeing wanted to cut overhead, and since the MD stuff had no commonality with boeing products, they didn't want to keep that division going just for one small airplane.

Airliners are pretty much all capable of flying through the same Wx, if your flight got canceled it was probably for the airline's own operational reasons (airplane broken, late, or limited arrival slots). The type of aircraft would not matter in the 121 turbojet world.


Did you know Terry Beezhold?

I'm not sure what your talking about in regards to B717s being able to fly through WX that the A320 cannot. I fly the A320, & any restrictions on what WX we can fly into the B717 would have as well. Perhaps it's more of a JetBlue company restriction.

The 717 is a solid, reliable airplane with a pretty nice flight deck, however I like the way Boeings fly better. It does not feel as solid as Boeing on the controls and is unstable at slow speeds in comparison.
Hawaiian Airlines flies the crap out of them-12-16 legs a day doing 30 minute turns.
More than likely the reason to retire it was financial, perhaps not enough orders or a higher margin on the 737 line.

the largest problem with the 717 was the size of the fuel tanks.

jetblue was hot for this aircraft if it had more range, but boeing was fearful that a longer range version would eat into 737 sales. so boeing lost 100 units to embraer. i also bet there are many more operators that passed by the 717 for this same reason.

looks like boeing was just wanting the defense, and was happy to have the civilian wing of douglas die.

First off, thanx to all that replied. It's this type of industry insight I'm always looking for.

On the costs of the 100 seat, 1000-1500 mile range ...

This sounds like the combination of timing that resulted in the 717 not having much of a chance.

There's not as much margin in the 100 passenger designs, I agree. But it did seem that Boeing could have had a solid seller. I'm starting to think it was just timing, especially with rickair7777 pointing out the pay considerations. After all, labor costs are a major consideration, or you wouldn't have other entities chartered for Continental Express,American Eagle, etc...

Yeah, this just looks like a repeat theme. Then again, didn't JetBlue buy the E-190 model that has only a little more reach than the 717? Or is that the E-195?

Oh, now I can definitely attest to that. I think when the US Navy cancelled the A-12 program and just went for the evolutionary F-18E/F Super Hornet, it was a no brainer for Boeing to scoup up MD. Little R&D costs for maximum, guaranteed return.

On the comment regarding Wx ...

Could be. Typically I'll see the sub-50 passenger jets grounded while largers will fly. Maybe it was a JetBlue E-190 that was grounded by weather while the 717, 737 and A320s still flew that day. Or, as you said, it could have been a company restriction beyond what the FAA limited.

Now the latter I utterly agree with. I've always noted how the Super 8s have to "land a little hot" compared to the 737 or A318/319/320 for the same level of flight control.

And miscellaneous ...

No, but the name sounds familiar. All of the work I ever did for Boeing was at the St. Louis location, although I did get to know a number of the majors there, but nothing of the commercial end.

When WX limits the number of departures, majors will get the big jets out first because there are more pax (fewer inconvenienced pax if the RJ's wait). Also, the crew of the 190 you saw may have had an issue with being Cat II or Cat III certified for the destination...just a thought, a crew issue not an airplane issue.

The larger passenger jets can usually LAND with slightly lower minimums than some of the RJ's, but it's not enough of a difference to result in mass cancellations...Wx rarely gets that low at most airports.

What you probably observed are arrival and departure slots being limited by low visibility at hub airports. When ATC has to allow more spacing between airplanes at a busy hub, some flights have to get cancelled. Mainline will usually cancel smaller airplanes first, since fewer pax (and less revenue) are impacted. It's about revenue capacity, not airplane capability.

Politics was a factor
 

That's what I heard too, but the California Senators and Congressmen told Boeing the merger might not be approved unless they agreed to keep the Long Beach production going.

It still is, but it's just C-17's. This can be pretty easily researched on the web, but after the merger, the 80 fell first, then the 90, then the 11. I rode the MD-11 program out until the last one hit the delivery center.

The last LB built commercial aircraft; the MD-95 took on the new name, the B-717. Had Boeing gone with a -100 and a -300, there may have been a chance but having just the -200, it was a orphan. As much as I hate to admit it, there just wasn't a market for it at the time.

Related: If you look at the Photo Section from about a year ago, I posted pictures of the last 717 delivery ceremony to Air Tran and Midwest (same day)

Rick, PM me if you want to get a message to Terry.

11Fan