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Old 01-21-2013, 06:41 PM   #1  
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Default An FAA Type rating and ICAO Type Rating

Hello Everyone

I have been trying to understand the differences between how type ratings are conducted by the FAA and rest of the world ( read Indian DGCA and EASA / JAA )

The following is a sample of the minimum requirements needed to undergo a type rating on the CRJ 100/200

The Indian DGCA lets one undergo a type rating anywhere in the world as long they meet the minimum requirements laid down them .

I would appreciate if you could have a look and answer a few of my questions below

Quote:
Endorsement Training on CRJ – 100/200 type of Aircraft

1. Jet Induction Training / Jet Orientation Training / Multi Crew Conversion – The trainee pilot shall undergo at least 12 hours of ground school followed by minimum 20 hours of classroom or CBT and STD. This training has to be at a facility approved for this purpose. (This training is not required to be undertaken in case the trainee pilot has past flying experience on Jet Aircraft). This may include any applicable training requirement which is a pre requisite for the following type rating syllabus. The Course content must then be increased appropriately.

2. Ground Training – The trainee pilot should undergo at least 72 hours of ground training. Ground Training must include a minimum of Aircraft Systems Training, general operational subjects training, CRM training, Systems Inclusion / Integrated Training, Weight and Balance Training, Aircraft Performance training and pre-flight inspection training. The ground training shall not be more than 8 hours in a day. There should not be any FFS simulator sessions during the ground training period. A ‘home study’ is not approved and no credit could be provided for the same.

2.1 At the end of ground subjects training, a written exam shall be conducted by the TRTO, with a minimum of 70 % pass marks (or higher if stipulated by TRTO). The certified marked answer sheets and tests should be sent to the Directorate of Training and licensing of this office in a sealed cover directly by the training institute for scrutiny and record.

3. Simulator Training – After completion of 1 and 2 above, the trainee pilot shall undergo a simulator training on approved Level ‘C’ or Level ‘D’ simulators as per details given below.

3.1 8 sessions of FFS training of duration of not less than 32 hours (which must include at least 16 hours as PF and 16 hours as PM) spread over 8 days. The duration of each session should be 2 hours as PF and 2 hours as PM each day. In case the trainee pilot is not attaining the required standard, he / she should be given appropriate training till a proficiency level is achieved before subjecting to a simulator test. The full flight simulator profiles shall include exercises to comply with the requirements of DGCA Operations Circular No. 2 of 2001. Further to the above, Profiles must include Circuits & Landings. The records of each simulator profile must be prepared duly remarked (including briefing and de-briefing remarks) and certified by the Instructor / Examiner. These should be sent to the Directorate of Training and licensing of this office in a sealed cover directly by the training institute for scrutiny and record.

3.2 Two hours of LOFT exercise as Pilot flying (PF) on a Level ‘D’ simulator.

3.3 After completion of the above, the trainee pilot should undergo 2 sessions of skill test (CA 40 checks) on a Level ‘D’ (ZFTT) simulator of duration of 2 hours, each with an examiner other than the one who imparted training.

3.4 The CA 40A(J) Checks (Skill Tests) by day as well as by night each must have three takeoffs and 3 landings which shall be demonstrated to an approved examiner as per the DGCA India CA 40A(J) check form. The required Pilot Proficiency Check (PPC) and IR check may be combined with the skill tests. The IR Check must be carried out with a minimum of 2 instrument approaches on 2 different approach facilities.

3.5 The trainee pilot shall undergo training on Low Visibility Operations (LVO) and All weather Operations (AWO) of 2 hours on Level ‘D’ Simulator. The purpose of this syllabus is to train all pilots to operate under All Weather Conditions.

3.6 AWO should include Wet Runway Operations, Heavy Rain, Cross Wind, Take Off and Approaches affected by wind shear and micro burst phenomenon to cover aspects of CAR on All Weather Operations dated 13.06.11, Section-8, Series – C, Part – 1 and FSF – ALAR toolkit.

3.7 The Type Rating Training syllabus being followed as per above shall in no case be less than what is being followed by the TRTO as per syllabus prescribed by the Contracting State.

3.8 After CRJ – 100/200 endorsement (type-rating) on your DGCA India license, trainee will be required to undergo a minimum of 45 minutes of familiarization aircraft training followed by a release route check for P2 (SIC) release, before exercising the privileges of the type rating. In case the trainee has not attained an acceptable level of proficiency, additional familiarization must be given till an acceptable level of proficiency is achieved. A report of the same should be submitted to this office for examination.
1) From the above it looks as if one needs around a minimum of 40 hours of simulator training . Does the FAA also require 40 hours of Simulator training as minimum ? If not then how much would a candidate require in order to obtain a full type rating ?

2) The skill test mentioned above is the equivalent of the FAA Checkride . One thing I have noticed is that they dont require an oral exam before the check ride . They only undergo a multiple choice written exam .

a) Does the FAA conduct a written exam as part of a type rating course ?

b) Does the FAA conduct an oral exam as part of the type rating course just like they do for PPL ,IR CPL and ATPL ?

c) If they do then what kind of questions are asked by the FAA Examiner ?

d) For how long does the oral exam usually take place ?

e) How long does the sim check take place ?

3. The Indian DGCA similar to the JAA / EASA requires pilots after the type rating to undergo at least 2 take off and landings without passengers on board prior to being allowed to carry passengers .

Does the FAA have a similar requirement ? If they do then how many take off and landings are required ?



I will appreciate all replies. Please feel free to identify any other differences that you might see is significant

Mods please move this thread to the correct section if this is not the right place to ask this question .

Thank you for your time
Cheers
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:54 AM   #2  
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Metal, there's no written for a type rating under FAA rules. The simulator program runs under 14CFR142 (colloquially known as FAR 142); the appropriate syllabus will give the hour requirement. Forty hours of sim is a lot, but I suppose it's possible in, say, an ab initio program. That would cost megabucks. Your best bet is to contact one of the simulator companies and ask. Higher Power Aviation has worked with Indian students in the past.

Higher Power Aviation | Inherit a jet crew experience. Inherit the industry.

A type rating oral is generally systems oriented and can go for a hour on up; it depends on the program, the applicant's experience level, and the examiner. Anything in the regs and ops manual is fair game, though. If the rating is also for an initial ATP, everything WILL be fair game. In that case, of course, you must have passed the ATP written.

Sims are usually taken in four-hour blocks; the ride is usually two hours per applicant (you'll swap seats with your sim partner halfway through, if necessary).
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:41 AM   #3  
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It would be unusual for a student to attempt to analyze the curriculum details behind a type rating.

What you really need to know, is will the employer you are interested in accept a type rating issued by the FAA?

Most nations and international companies will accept either JAA, FAA or both.

Nations which do not directly accept FAA or JAA will normally allow a fairly easy conversion from one or the other, or both.

JAA academic standards are more stringent, so the FAA ratings are usually less expensive, especially if you come to the US.

Also, if you are looking for inexpensive type ratings in the US, the ground training will be mostly self-study, before you attend sim, and will not meet that 72 hour requirement.

There is no written for a type, the oral is usually 2-4 hours and would focus on systems and operating procedures. You would not expect regulatory questions if you are not getting an FAA pilot rating (ie ATP).

As for real-airplane training, if the sim is certified properly, no airplane check is required to issue the type rating. A US employer would most likely have to give you a few landings in a real airplane without pax if you're the PIC. An SIC might not need the bounces but that depends on the company OPSPEC.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:46 AM   #4  
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The FAA does not require item 1 for a type rating, at least not yet. Under the proposed revisions to the ATP is a requirement for 24 classroom hours and 16 sim hours for any ME ATP.

2. Is about the same, I've seen 80 hours as a normal classroom hour requirement. There's no FAA requirement for a written exam, I've seen some airlines do one.

3. Thirty two hours is a lot. Most airlines and 142s do about 24 and one checkride. And if it isn't a level C or D you have to do some items in the real airplane. Low vis SMGS stuff is cover in the type, CAT II &III may be separate after the checkride.

Under 121 you'll spend ~ 20 hours with a check airman getting Operating Experience -OE. Then you have High Minimums till you have 100 hours on the aircraft. You normally have to add 100 and a half mile to all approach mins.

The FAA says a normal type oral should last 2 hours. I had a Fed cut me off in mid sentence at 1:59:30 during my 727 oral. We'd just barely made it down the FE's panel to the hydraulic system.

The FAA publishes the requirements for a type on the airplane ATP PTS.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:26 AM   #5  
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@ MetalGear

FAA system & JAA system are two different worlds. Indian DGCA is a world of it's own. There is no comparison between FAA & DGCA systems.

FAA has less requiements for type rating of pilots because usually FAA pilots have more experience than Indian trainee pilots. In USA pilots usually have 1000 hrs TT with 100 Multi before they sit in a training class for a CRJ or ATR or Dash8 . Now it will soon be 1500 TT with ATP mins.

Indian trainee pilots, with only 250/300 TT with 25 hrs multi, will go straight to a 737 or A320, or sometimes a CRJ or ATR or Q400; so that is why DGCA requires more ground school & level D sim hrs & more IOE, i believe it is 100 hrs for IOE.

If I read between the lines, what you trying to achieve is to do a type rating in USA which will be acceptable to the Indian DGCA & one that covers DGCA syllabus.

YES, it is perfectly possible to do so & at a very reasonable cost as compared to CAE in Bangalore. Infact the cost is very less in USA than anything in Europe.

Most of the reputed TRTO's (like Higher Power Aviation & Flight Safety etc) already know what to do for Indian DGCA type rating & they will either have a pkg for Indian DGCA type rating or customise one for you.

The same detailed info is also available on the DGCA website (from where you got the syllabus).

The TRTO should know about the requirement for conducting a written, the examiner will have a pre-made written exam for you for the systems of that a/c in which you must score at least 70% & complete in in a given time frame, i believe is 2.5 hrs.

In the FAA system, the examiner asks oral questions.

There used to be a requirement for 6 take offs & landings on an actual aircraft. I was just recently speaking to a friend who used to be a check airman, that there is no need for 6 T/O & Ldgs in an airplane for FO's if the LEVEL D sim is used. That requirement is only for Captains now but you will have to double check with DGCA in FID or DTL.

You just need to figure out which a/c you want to do a type rating on & then be ready for the FIREHOSE.........

One thing I will suggest before you start the training is to do an IPC or an instrument refresher with an good instrument instructor for 8 to 10 hrs. It will help you to brush up the instrument procedures specially if you are low time means between 250 to 400 hrs TT.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:22 AM   #6  
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I will just add a broad comment. The JAA/European approach is more structured and does not include an oral.

It is a mistake for pilots from this culture to underestimate the importance of the FAA oral exam. It can cover anything, and the examiner can "dig" into areas that appear to be weak--which is its purpose. One can walk into an FAA type rating with much less effort than the JAA demands, but you had better know the airplane.

For American pilots the oral is the focus during ground school, not the written tests. In practice the biggest complaint that I have heard over the years is that a ground school program did not prepare for the oral. Simply put, your ground school test results are of zero interest to the examiner.

I mention all of this because I sense that the OP is struggling with the different requirements and cultures.
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:51 PM   #7  
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Thanks for your reply everyone

That cleared the air regarding a lot of doubts I had .

While I dont plan on doing a rating until the day I have a solid job offer , i was just taking a look at what are the options out there and comparing notes with my friends who are presently employed with the airlines ( like IndiGo ) and those who decide to get a self sponsored type rating without job offers .

At IndiGo they do around 80 hours on a FFS / Level D A320 sim before being allowed to actually fly the airplane
Type ratings are usually done at CAE Madrid or CAE Kuala Lumpur
One of the reasons for such high time on the sims is because the Jet Induction / Multi Crew training is also conducted on the A320 sim


@bcpilot

You seem to have a lot knowledge when it comes to the DGCA .

Quote:
FAA has less requiements for type rating of pilots because usually FAA pilots have more experience than Indian trainee pilots. In USA pilots usually have 1000 hrs TT with 100 Multi before they sit in a training class for a CRJ or ATR or Dash8 . Now it will soon be 1500 TT with ATP mins.
I agree with this statement . But if you look at the DGCA requirements even if I had 1500 hours or 3000 hours of Multi Engine Piston time I would still be required to undergo the same amount of training as someone with 250 hours.........

The only way around this would be if I had Jet engined experience........

I was having a chat with a friend of mine who was with me in flight school in florida .
He was of the opinion that Cockpit4u in Berlin was the best place to get a type rating . They were charging roughly 30,000 USD for an A320 type that meets the Indian DGCA requirement .

I asked what difference would it make whether you went to Cockpit4u or some TRTO in the US . Higher Power Aviation on the other hand was quoting 21000 USD for the same requirements. At both places you would need the same number of simulator and ground school hours in order to meet the DGCA requirements . The only difference being the quality of the instructor which usually has nothing to do with the TRTO..........
He was of the opinion that somehow the European TRTO's are much better because Europe teaches more theory at the CPL / ATPL level

The other issue I have seen is among those who decide to self sponsor a type rating without a job offer at the end .
When the reach the airline written test / interview stage they complain that the systems questions being asked are too hard to answer.......
This has spurned another Industry where present airline captains conduct coaching classes for self type rated pilots to help them at airline exams / interviews.....

I dont know what they teach at type rating school......But there seems to be huge disconnect between what the school teaches and what the airline expects the candidates to know.....

An e.g. I would like to point out is back in Feb 2012 IndiGo decided to conduct an exam for only A320 type rated candidates . 150 appeared . I dont know how many passed through the written exam but only 8 candidates finally managed to pass the Interview

One of the 8 who got through was a friend of mine who had a little over 1500 hours of experience working as a flight instructor . He had done his rating from Higher Power Aviation .

My next question is which do you think is better when it comes to knowing the aircraft systems very well ?

a) A multiple choice written exam before commencing of simulator training ?

or

b) An Oral exam with an FAA examiner after all the ground school and sim training ?

I am going with option b)

Like I said earlier I dont plan on doing a type rating unless I have a solid job to go to at the end . But If had a choice of choosing the TRTO I would definitely choose one in the US and get the type rating endorsed on both my FAA License and DGCA license as well .

Here is another info .

Air India has a simulator training training centre in Hyderabad India . It called CTE or Central Training Establishment .

At present they primarily do training for the A320 fleet . They train newly recruited first officers for about 6 months in order to undergo the A320 type rating .
I am not sure how true this is but its said that they receive around 200 hours of training on the FFS / Level D A320 sim

It also informally called the Central Torture Establishment
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:56 AM   #8  
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Just a point of clarification, the oral is done before the sim training. Depending on the program, there may some "system integration" training in a fixed base sim or procedures trainer before the oral.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:08 PM   #9  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalGear View Post

@bcpilot

You seem to have a lot knowledge when it comes to the DGCA .

I would still be required to undergo the same amount of training as someone with 250 hours.........

..............

One of the 8 who got through was a friend of mine who had a little over 1500 hours of experience working as a flight instructor .
..............

Air India has a simulator training training centre in Hyderabad India . It called CTE or Central Training Establishment .
It also informally called the Central Torture Establishment

DGCA...... I know exactly how that circus is played over there.....

As far as CTE, Central Training Establisment or Central Torture Establishment, whatever you call it.... It is a very good training place where they drill & grill the ab-initios but also very expensive, approx 25 lacs or $50,000 USD.... But, you will know everything there is to learn about the 320...

As for 1500 or 2000 hrs guy, the DGCA requirement may be same but the experienced guy will have a far better chance to abosrb training & finish the type rating without going into the extra sim sessions....

You yourself have agreed that out of the 150, only 8 made it & your Flight Instructor friend was one of the 8 who made it.....

So, do you even need to think twice what career route should be taken, specially by those who don't have a silver bullet..........????

There's a very old saying..

"The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war.."
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