"Courtesy" ATC Calls
 

I'm only a student pilot, and recently during a group ground school lesson the instructor mentioned that it is against the FARs to give a "courtesy call" to ATC as you are not speaking your full intentions upon first communication.

For example, say there are multiple aircraft attempting to talk to Ground at a very busy airport. It appears relatively common (and maybe smart?) to simply call in "Anytown Ground, Skyhawk 1234A" and wait for a response instead of going forward with your entire spiel and canceling out another transmission.

Is this an example of real world versus the legal world?

Thanks

Listen before you leap
 

Real life: judge the freq congestion and xmit as little or as much as required to get you on ATCs radar (pun intended).

FARs: Not familiar (or forgot) if one exists.

It's not a good practice to give the "courtesy call". If you have a question, call up and say you have a question. If it's busy, they are hoping you are going to be as efficient as possible so they can move on to the next aircraft. I wouldn't say that it's "against the FARs", that's a little extreme.

You don"t want to "that person" in class but it would be interesting to ask the the instructor, "Hey, what page is that on so I can highlite it."

Radio contact procedures are outlined in chapter 4 of the AIM, which is not regulatory.
The basic who you're calling, who you are, where you are, what you want and what ATIS you've got. But they even say don't overload the controller. As pointed out above, go with the flow. All that being said, I can't count how any times I've sent the complete message only to get back, "Ah, who's calling?

Around Bravo airspace I will announce Cessna xxxx, and they will either say VFR traffic calling approach stand by, or go ahead. Never had any complaints from ATC.

We checked into Eielson AFB for a training detachment once and during the in-brief ATC informed us not to make 'courtesy calls' to them and to check in with all of the information they required of us on initial contact.

I told my students that we would try it and play by their rules, but that it was my experience that it would lead to missed calls and therefore more unnecessary radio traffic. After day two of making the initial calls without any heads up, and having to reiterate the string of information after numerous "Raider XX say again", we went back to doing things the *old* way.

You get a feeling for when such calls are required and when they aren't. I'll use my own judgement and not worry about being "that person". Real life isn't quite so neat. Of course I still fly with a few who still use "with you" too :D

That's a little different with class B/C. It's good to say "with request" when you can tell it's extremely busy, and they know you are looking for some kind of ATC service. In this case they are dealing with aircraft already in the air and flying. More important here is to call with plenty of lead time. :)

+1, I routinely use "cessna xxx, vfr request" when opearating VFR under, over, around, and/or in class B and want flight following with busy radios, no issues, the worst reply I got was, "cessna calling, remain clear of class B, I don't have time for vfr traffic!:)

another one........"at this time"

Different areas may have different feelings about this. In Phoenix, we've been told they prefer us to spit it all out on the initial call, if they need us to repeat it, they will. It wastes far more radio time if you do the whole "vfr request" thing. In California and Seattle, it seems they prefer "vfr request", but I'm not sure.

I wholeheartedly prefer--in all circumstances--the method James posted above, "Approach, N123, request," or "Approach, N123, for flight following." Giving the whole story on the first call usually means you'll have to repeat it.

Ditto

My goal is to give just enough information so the controller can decide my priority. He may be able to handle a plane transiting his airspace, but not be able to handle pattern work.

"Cessna1234, 30 north, flight following"
"Cessna1234, VFR practice approaches"
"Cessna1234, clearance to XYZ"

Each of these gives him an idea of how much work you will be adding without tying up the frequency.

Courtesy call
 

First off, the communication described is not what is known as a courtesy call; it is an initial contact. A courtesy call is entirely different. Unless chatter is slow I would recommend just your type and call sign/N # as applicable, followed by request or over. In busy airspace such as the LA basin or the northeast, never give the whole speil initially. You will likely tie up the frequency at an inopportune time or may even be in the wrong sector for the controller you are talking to. That aside, polish up the communication! It will pay off right away. Don't be a hot shot, just professional. You don't have to get paid to fly like a Pro... BTW, Phoenix does get busy at times but I would not consider that area busy airspace at all; they do have some great controllers though.

Courtesy Call
 

I want to ammend my last post... If on the ground and VFR I generally give the whole speil at once. The ground controller needs to know 3 things, 4 if there is an ATIS. Who you are, Where you are & What do you want. You can spit that out pretty quick and I do it whenever possible. In the air talking to a tower controller it is the same. When reporting your position; don't anticipate being there, report where you are at that moment, the controller will allow that you are moving! Also, don't say you are over the coastline, that generally does not tell them anything as it is generally a long coastline. Use the charted or accepted reporting points when ever possible.

Situation-dependent IMO.

If they're expecting you (ex approach hand-off to class B tower) check on with all the info needed.

If you have some complicated special request, or request for info, check on with basic who & where and then start your dialog when you have their attention. This gives them enough info to prioritize you.

I know that there are certain controllers that list speciafically what they want to hear in the Jepps for the airfield. They want nothing more, nothing less. From what I remember, checking in with the Frankfurt (EDDF) tower the call was " Frankfurt Tower, Callsign, runway ".

As has been said many times in this post, it all depends on the congestion of the airspace at the time and how busy the controllers are.

I would say on the initial call state your request if they are busy.

Do what you NEED to do. Never question a transmission if you're certified,a,d understand unless you believe it's absolutely necessary. Small request, big request; neither you or ATC wants to have an incident.

It should be very basic though- be short, and to the point. Unless you're a frequent flyer into JFK where they seem to enjoy casual banter. And it's a wonder they have numerous delays...

Which do you think is more efficient? "ground, N12345" ..... "N12345 ground" ...... "Ground N12345 is at FBO VFR eastbound ready to taxi with information charlie" ..... "N12345 runway 24 taxi via..." OR "ground N13455 at FBO VFR eastbound ready to taxi information charlie" .... "N12345 runway 24 taxi via..."

Same thing on RADAR. give me something to work with (but keep it short) instead of a required extra transmission. A basic request such as taxi VFR or request flight following with call sign will do. I may ignore you on the radio at first, but I can start computer entries on you while I'm talking to another aircraft or coordinating something with another controller. PLEASE use your callsign when you readback or acknwowledge a clearance. I may recognize your voice but the quality control folks (and lawyers) that listen to tapes don't. Also if the clearance involves a runway and or hold short instruction READ IT BACK or else I am required to get you to do it.

If you call once or twice and we don't answer, it's because we're busy. We don't just talk on the radio; sometimes talking to the center or tower takes a minute. You hear dead air, but we might be relaying important information on the landline.

Also, if you were handed off from another controller (say, if you're IFR), and I don't get to you right away, be patient and stop blocking the frequency. I never understand when pilots keep trying to check in 40 miles from the airport and keep blocking the frequency as I am trying to turn someone onto the localizer or something. We see you....if it's busy and you don't get the chance to check in, I will reach out to you when I need you to do something.

In 12 years as a CFI, I must say I've never heard of an ATC courtesy call as being a violation of the FARs. Ask your instructor if (s)he can give you the FAR number that references this so-called reg. I'm willing to bet (s)he can't. Most likely, this is just the instructor's pet peeve, so (s)he's trying to discourage your class from doing something that (s)he personally finds annoying.

Regarding courtesy calls, just use your best judgment as PIC. If you're making a standard ATC request (ie. on the ramp, ready to taxi for departure to the practice area), I'd say go ahead and make your full call sans courtesy call. If, however, you have some kind of unique situation or complicated request, a courtesy call might be nice to make sure the controller's workload allows him/her to accommodate you. As you gain flight experience, you'll get a feel for what works and what doesn't.

As a favor, please do report back if your instructor is able to show the existence of such a "courtesy call" regulation.

Looking for a pilot job? Check out my Facebook Page.

Plus One.

The only thing I'll add is to not to be intimidated. It's a balance but sometimes newer pilots try to stay "too much out of the way". You are a part of the ATC system as much as that UAL 777. If you're circling the VFR reporting point and the weather is closing down on you, and you have nowhere else to go...it might not be the right time to be timid on the radio

Radio Comms is one of the harder things to master. The basics are easy, but only years of practice will get you to be "fluent." When a newb keys up on the radio everybody on the frequency can immediatelly tell before he's done saying his call sign that he's a newb, much like native speakers KNOW when someone else is not a native speaker of a language...they are saying all the same words, but yet everybody still knows. Listen to as much ATC comms as possible. When you plan your X-ctry, don't only choose the lonely Class E airports in the middle of nowhere. The only way to get good at talking on the radio is to do it A LOT.

"with-you" has become one of my pet-peeves also. Not because people use it, but because it bothers some people SOO much. Yes...i'm a "with-you" guy. I'm also a "ga'day" guy. I once had an FO criticize me for my "with-you". I asked him why? He gave me the usual about taking up airwave space, who else would we be with, not in the p/c glossary, etc. His very next radio call was "Roger, We're IMC, we got 'um in the box". So what letter do I find "we got 'um in the box" filed under in the P/C Glossary? Why do people even say that, there is no such a thing as "TCAS seperation". We called a truce after 2 legs of every "Q, P, 3, 5, 9, 0, ten-thousand, saying 350 instead of FL350, not saying our call sign, not checking out of altitudes, every frequency read-back (NOBODY reads back frequencies properly all the time), etc." was pointed out.

Roger-Wilco, Over & Out!

I'd rather you be with me than against me

I thought a courtesy call was when on an uncontrolled ramp and you'll be flying somewhere that requires a release time, "Fight 123 pushing gate 28" lets the controller know you'll be taxiing shortly so they can go ahead and call TMU for a T/O time fore you.

Understood. But 10 miles to the airspace happens REAL quick at 120+ knots of GS, and some pilots are held responsible for every extra minute of hobbs time that is seen as unnecessary. At $2k/hr for the plane, a five minute delay doing a lazy 360 waiting for ATC acknowledgement/clearance is $166, which can buy a lot of gas. It all adds up, believe that.

I know that's not a concern for a controller, but it is to a pilot with his boss looking over his shoulder. Some bosses don't care who is at fault, the pilot will get the heat...and sometime the expense, too.

Just sayin'...

This annoys me.
"Flight 123 request"
"Flight 123, go ahead"
"Flight 123 request FL 350, if available".
Why not just say "Flight 123 request FL 350"
Less chat and if it is not available you won't get it.

south of the border you need to do this just to wake the controller up.

EYB, your technique doesn't work with Manila Control or Radio. Trust me.
fbh

nope. maybe works fine with Tulsa approach

Like jmcmanna said, we see you. If you're IFR coming for landing, I have absolute knowledge of every aircraft coming in, from the one on short final all the way to the edge of my scope coming in on the STAR. We have a certain method to the madness and eventually will get around to you.

You're not saving any $$ on gas by me acknowledging your initial check in. if anything....if you **** me off enough with the "blocked" stuff you may end up spending extra $$ on gas as I make you now be the loser of any potential tiebreaker situation. :mad:

You're not saving any $$ on gas by me acknowledging your initial check in. if anything....if you **** me off enough with the "blocked" stuff you may end up spending extra $$ on gas as I make you now be the loser of any potential tiebreaker situation. :mad:[/QUOTE]

Been there done that, just because I don't have the time to wait for the drawn out readback. But, once in a while I get so irritated that I'm motivated to make you first just to get you out of my airspace and off the frequency. Most times, however, if you act like you know what's going on, turn, climb or decend when it's asked for rather that waiting 5 miles, I'm more apt to trust you in a situation that may be tight. That how you become #1.

Been there done that, just because I don't have the time to wait for the drawn out readback. But, once in a while I get so irritated that I'm motivated to make you first just to get you out of my airspace and off the frequency. Most times, however, if you act like you know what's going on, turn, climb or decend when it's asked for rather that waiting 5 miles, I'm more apt to trust you in a situation that may be tight. That how you become #1.[/QUOTE]

real professional....nice post there

I guess that's the point. Act like a professional and you get treated like one. There really are times when one pilot can require 80-90 percent of your frequency time even when he is only 10 or less of traffic. I'm not talking about special situations or problems, just poor technique. This can become detrimental to the others I'm trying to provide service to. As I pilot, I know ATC is only part of what a pilot is dealing with and I constantly remind my non-pilot colleagues of that when they get impatient with someone who may be dealing with other issues. Sometimes the best way to deal with a problem child is to move him along so he doesn't cause a issues for others. That's all I'm saying.

[QUOTE=Twin Wasp;1344318]You don"t want to "that person" in class but it would be interesting to ask the the instructor, "Hey, what page is that on so I can highlite it."

Radio contact procedures are outlined in chapter 4 of the AIM, which is not regulatory.The basic who you're calling, who you are, where you are, what you want and what ATIS you've got. But they even say don't overload the controller. As pointed out above, go with the flow. All that being said, I can't count how any times I've sent the complete message only to get back, "Ah, who's calling? [QUOTE]

Exactly and exactly!!!!!!!:D

Not only South of border..... It is common in a lot of countries.....

In fact, it is Standard Operating Procedure in a lot of countries who follow ICAO procedures to the line, They want you check in or establish contact FIRST with just your call sign. There are a lot of places, where if you follow US type radio procedures, " who where what", they will lash out on you.

When in the US, there is a lot of good advice here........

This can apply to us as well. Often times if its not too busy, or short on staffing (this happening a lot lately), we may be working combined positions, and may have multiple frequencies up on the speaker. We may miss that first part of the initial check in if we're already engaged on one of the other frequencies, or if we're on a landline. Checking in with a "New York approach, November 12345 request" is a better way to establish initial contact, rather than tie the frequency with all the extra stuff.