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-   -   Intercepting the localizer at IAD (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/technical/77390-intercepting-localizer-iad.html)

ERJF15 09-27-2013 04:45 PM


Originally Posted by captain152 (Post 1492039)

40?! Holy balls! I hope you're VFR

Nope....#7 in line behind Royal Jordanian.

DirectTo 09-27-2013 05:07 PM


Originally Posted by ERJF15 (Post 1492037)
In ORD, they'll ask you to join 40 out.

IAH is my personal best...62 miles out in the middle of the night. I backed it up with the GPS of course, but it was pretty much on the GPS course and relatively steady the whole way in. Guess that'll happen with a lot of flat land - but I was impressed the transmitter was even that strong.

Taildragger86 09-27-2013 08:27 PM


Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 1491997)

Originally Posted by Taildragger86 (Post 1491926)
The other day I was flying into iad and told to intercept the localizer close to 30 miles out. I don't fly into there that often. I simply cleaned up the fms, and intercepted in white needles. I figured that intercepting in green would have caused the autopilot to constantly turn back and forth chasing the localizer because we were so far out. My captain told me that technically we have to be in green needles in order to be legal because our instructions were "intercept the localizer." Anyone have any thoughts on the best way to do this next time it comes up with a fed on board?

What runway at KIAD?

It was runway 1R

tomgoodman 09-27-2013 09:18 PM


Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 1492035)
ESV's can be extensive if situations are right and there is a need for procedural control out to such a distance. I did a 40 nm localizer approach some time ago at KIAH.

As I recall, the LAX 25L localizer was one example of this. You would be cleared to intercept it a long way out, but not to follow the GS until FUELR intersection.

USMCFLYR 09-28-2013 04:16 AM


Originally Posted by Taildragger86 (Post 1492185)
It was runway 1R

Interesting find Taildragger.
LOC IAD does not have an ESV associated with the facility except for the DME. The DME ESV is out to 19nm between 3,000 and 4,800'
According to this information it would not be correct for ATC to instruct you to intercept the LOC outside of the standard 18nm service volume. I'll have to ask one of the ATC'ers that I work with about it more on Monday or maybe a controller with local knowledge on the forum will provide some input.


Originally Posted by tomgoodman (Post 1492211)
As I recall, the LAX 25L localizer was one example of this. You would be cleared to intercept it a long way out, but not to follow the GS until FUELR intersection.

LOC LAX is an example of a LOC that has numerous ESVs associated with the facility. The LOC has an ESV all the way out 85nm from 10,000-15,000'! There is another LOC and DME ESV at 42nm between those same altitudes and you'll see from the approach plate that procedurally they want to use LUVYN at no lower than 10,000' at 41DME off of the LOC. The GS also has an ESV that would encompass FUELR, though it shows it only at 8100 and it looks like the plate reads that you could be at 7,000 or above.

ERJF15 09-28-2013 06:21 AM

ESV? Extended service volume?

I can now pick-up DFW's loc's 90+ miles away! From over cotton pick'n FSM!!!

EasternATC 09-28-2013 09:42 AM

ATC w/radar can practically ignore NAVAID service volumes (FAAH 7110.65, chapter 4, sec. 1).

nfnsquared 09-29-2013 02:27 PM


Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 1492282)
....According to this information it would not be correct for ATC to instruct you to intercept the LOC outside of the standard 18nm service volume....

Not true. See below


Originally Posted by EasternATC (Post 1492532)
ATC w/radar can practically ignore NAVAID service volumes (FAAH 7110.65, chapter 4, sec. 1).

Yes. ATC can direct an intercept outside of SV, but they remain responsible for monitoring position (and making deviation notifications) until within SV. 4-1-2, note 3. (Pg 184).

USMCFLYR 09-29-2013 03:28 PM


Originally Posted by nfnsquared (Post 1493218)
Not true. See below



Yes. ATC can direct an intercept outside of SV, but they remain responsible for monitoring position (and making deviation notifications) until within SV. 4-1-2, note 3. (Pg 184).

Yes - I saw the note and looked at the reference.
Tomorrow I'll be asking some of the ATC'ers that I work with to explain this to me further. It sounds more like ATC using radar to guide the aircraft onto a 'fictitious' LOC course. From my perspective - if that LOC signal has not been checked out there it can 't be used - period. If TERPS sent a procedure to me with a LOC fix out at 40nm and there was no ESV request attached - it would be rejected and returned for redesign or request the appropriate ESV - and IF it passed then we would give it to them.

EasternATC 09-29-2013 07:48 PM


Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 1493239)
Yes - I saw the note and looked at the reference.
Tomorrow I'll be asking some of the ATC'ers that I work with to explain this to me further. It sounds more like ATC using radar to guide the aircraft onto a 'fictitious' LOC course. From my perspective - if that LOC signal has not been checked out there it can 't be used - period. If TERPS sent a procedure to me with a LOC fix out at 40nm and there was no ESV request attached - it would be rejected and returned for redesign or request the appropriate ESV - and IF it passed then we would give it to them.

The current SV limits are standards that were written in a different era of technology. Everyday, thousands of airplanes at hundreds of airports are joining localizers outside of 18 miles, and they're all tracking quite reliably.


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