Exemption 3585
11-23-2013, 05:24 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: B-73N FO
Posts: 532
Ill give it a go.
Let's say that your destination TAF doesn't look so hot. You need 1/2sm to go there and the TAF says tempo 1/4. 3585 allows you to still dispatch there, but requires a second alternate to be listed, and fuel for the furthest alternate. The caveat is that the weather below your minimums must be at least 50% of what you need, and must be part of a conditional statement in the TAF (part of a prob30, prob40 or tempo line). Same can be done if your first alt is below the derived alternate mins, same rules apply ( conditional and 50%). 2nd alternate has to meet all weather mins.
That's about as simple as I can make it, anyone else have a better means of making it clear as mud?
Let's say that your destination TAF doesn't look so hot. You need 1/2sm to go there and the TAF says tempo 1/4. 3585 allows you to still dispatch there, but requires a second alternate to be listed, and fuel for the furthest alternate. The caveat is that the weather below your minimums must be at least 50% of what you need, and must be part of a conditional statement in the TAF (part of a prob30, prob40 or tempo line). Same can be done if your first alt is below the derived alternate mins, same rules apply ( conditional and 50%). 2nd alternate has to meet all weather mins.
That's about as simple as I can make it, anyone else have a better means of making it clear as mud?
11-23-2013, 06:25 AM
#5
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,210
Conditional language = PROB or TEMP. We used to consider BCMG as a conditional term but no more apparently (not sure if that's just us, or the FAA).
You can go if:
1. DEST VIS Cond. Lang. >= 1/2 of that required for the approach. Also CIG >= 1/2 required only if CIG is a published requirement in the approach (not the norm).
AND
2. 1ST ALT VIS & CIG Cond. Lang. >= 1/2 of that required for the approach. Required CIG in this case, if not published, would be the MDA/DH.
AND
3. 2ND ALT VIS & CIG >= normal minimums (2ND ALT is always required for 3585 at least for us).
In all cases main body language must meet mins.
You can go if:
1. DEST VIS Cond. Lang. >= 1/2 of that required for the approach. Also CIG >= 1/2 required only if CIG is a published requirement in the approach (not the norm).
AND
2. 1ST ALT VIS & CIG Cond. Lang. >= 1/2 of that required for the approach. Required CIG in this case, if not published, would be the MDA/DH.
AND
3. 2ND ALT VIS & CIG >= normal minimums (2ND ALT is always required for 3585 at least for us).
In all cases main body language must meet mins.
11-23-2013, 09:54 AM
#7
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
This rule is a pita and it is rarely used. Most pilots kind of hate it, but knowing the history helps a bit. It was an exemption granted originally to Peoples Express to normal FAA weather rules helping them compete with mainline companies who had more expensive weather departments and their own certified WX reports. The mainlines would get to fly when the same Peoples Express flights had to sit around waiting for NWS updates. It was a way to level the playing field a little bit, making conditional remarks being somewhat vague by nature, less restrictive and less confining for those who cannot afford independent WX reports. Richie Lengel's book also has a good explanation.
11-23-2013, 07:28 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,662
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
This rule is a pita and it is rarely used. Most pilots kind of hate it, but knowing the history helps a bit. It was an exemption granted originally to Peoples Express to normal FAA weather rules helping them compete with mainline companies who had more expensive weather departments and their own certified WX reports. The mainlines would get to fly when the same Peoples Express flights had to sit around waiting for NWS updates. It was a way to level the playing field a little bit, making conditional remarks being somewhat vague by nature, less restrictive and less confining for those who cannot afford independent WX reports. Richie Lengel's book also has a good explanation.
Even with the experience I have with 3585, as soon as I see in on the release the FIRST thing I do is pull out the FOM and read the section. It simply chews up too much of my personal memory space to memorize it. Combine that if it's a 5 am show following an RR overnight, etc.
11-24-2013, 06:24 AM
#9
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,210
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Conditional language = PROB or TEMP. We used to consider BCMG as a conditional term but no more apparently (not sure if that's just us, or the FAA).
Aviation Weather Services AC 00-45G Change 1 no longer includes BCMG as one of the Forecast Change Indicator Groups for TAF's. Only FM, TEMPO and PROB are used. BCMG can still be used in area forecasts, just not TAFs.
12-13-2013, 07:45 PM
#10
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: lav specialist
Posts: 82
Good stuff here I haven't heard of before. So to really dumb is down it's a backup for your first alt if it has a TEMPO or PROB in the taf? 2nd alt has to meet all wx reqs. Also do you have to have enough fuel to get to your 2nd alternate with reserves or just enough to get to that point. Thanks!
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