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Old 07-10-2018, 01:35 AM   #1  
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Default Pass rate for TSA 121 ground school?

Just wondering the pass and fail rate for the 121 ground school for this company. I have read the article on the TSA website already. Just wanting to.hear from others experience how it is and if you fail what happens.
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Old 07-10-2018, 03:34 AM   #2  
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https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/r...hout-rate.html
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:03 AM   #3  
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Just wondering the pass and fail rate for the 121 ground school for this company. I have read the article on the TSA website already. Just wanting to.hear from others experience how it is and if you fail what happens.
What is your experience and age? The older guys that have no idea what they’re getting themselves into, like the fact that they will have to fly airline procedures, have a tough time with it. Its not “hard” training at all it’s easy. It’s just for whatever reason the flows and airline procedures dont compute with some guys. The cases you hear of failing or dropping out are guys that can’t do an ILS with proper call outs or can’t do steep turns etc, I mean it’s not rocket science. Just do some of that pilot stuff and you’ll be fine.

The training is not designed to teach you how to fly a steep turn amongst other things, they expect you to be able to do it in a jet. That’s an example of what guys have a problem with. They expect to be given time to learn and practice these tasks. You just dont have enough time to be learning private pilot stuff during sim, you will run out of time.

Last edited by Knobcrk1; 07-10-2018 at 06:17 AM.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:25 AM   #4  
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I'm 30 year old army blackhawk pilot with about 600 hrs total time. All rotary time. No fix wing. I'm looking to do the Transition.

What ILS Callouts are they specifically are thru looking for? Where your at in the apparoach as far as way points? Decision altitude? Advising tower when needed?
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:30 AM   #5  
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I'm 30 year old army blackhawk pilot with about 600 hrs total time. All rotary time. No fix wing. I'm looking to do the Transition.

What ILS Callouts are they specifically are thru looking for? Where your at in the apparoach as far as way points? Decision altitude? Advising tower when needed?
Each company is different. But think of all the callouts for various phases of flight the same as patter with your co-pilot and crew chief in a UH60.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:56 AM   #6  
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I'm 30 year old army blackhawk pilot with about 600 hrs total time. All rotary time. No fix wing. I'm looking to do the Transition.

What ILS Callouts are they specifically are thru looking for? Where your at in the apparoach as far as way points? Decision altitude? Advising tower when needed?
They’ll tell you when you get to training. Every airline has specific scripts or call outs you follow for each phase of flight as a pilot flying and monitoring. Takeoff for example has like 10 call outs or events in it like when to put the flaps up or speeds etc...Also specific tasks in the cockpit you have to follow each and every time from powered up, fight and shutdown at the gate. I think guys are coming in not understanding what it is they signed up to do and think all we do is shut the door start the engine and put the gear up. It’s very structured.
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Old 07-10-2018, 02:56 PM   #7  
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If you are really interested in working for a 121 airline you need to be equipped with the ability to fly airline flights. In my experience, the guys that couldn't make it through the program weren't even failing on callouts, they were failing because they couldn't fly instruments. Don't get me wrong, there are a multitude of reasons that guys are busting out of training. All of them can be summated by saying they just aren't ready for this type of flying. I've seen guys not make it from not being able to program the FMC. I've also seen guys not be able to maintain straight and level +/- 700ft. The biggest recurring issue I've seen amongst the Rotor guys that don't make it is a complete lack of instrument skills and knowledge coupled with a very poor understanding of the autopilot and how to interface with it to make the airplane do what you want. When you fly this jet or any jet these days, it is absolutely critical you understand the autopilot. When you took your checkrides in the past, you were evaluated on your ability to control the airplane and maintain that control within a specific set of parameters set forth by some regulatory agency. In the civilian side of things that's the Practical Test Standards. When you fly this jet, you're going to be graded on the same thing, but there's a whole new facet to flying it: Automation. 90% of the guys that washout (from my experience) failed on this. You're going to have to fly this bird in very tight ATP standards with automation, so if you have no idea what each and every button does and how to verify with the airplane on the Flight Mode Annunciator what it's trying to do, you will not make it. I guarantee you. The Rotor guys I saw come through had very little automation experience and by the time I got to see them, they had already made it through systems and mostly through Systems Integration Training. Needless to say, if you make it to SIM with very little knowledge of how to use the autopilot, you won't do well.


The other big problem I saw was instrument skills. If you don't know how to identify a fix on an approach or know where you are without seeing outside, you will not make it. I saw a rotor guy who didn't know what DME was. If you don't know what DME is, you really aren't equipped for airline flying.


I tell guys this. The 121 training environment is a bring your own tools environment. What I mean by that, is that the programs at most regionals are not AQP and therefor there's no "gate" style training to pass before moving on (e.g. you don't do procedures stuff and then take a small checkride on that before moving onto emergencies). You have to bring all the tools required to "build" your repertoire of airline flying skills. You will not have time and you will not be taught in any portion of the training what a VOR, NDB, DME, ILS, LDA, Standard Instrument Departure (SID), Standard Terminal Arrival Route (STAR), etc is. You will be expected to show up with all of this knowledge. Within the first couple of GFS and SIMS you'll be going through how to shoot an approach in this plane. If you're shooting your first ILS in 2+ years and are a little fuzzy on DME, you're way behind.


I'm not trying to belittle you or in any way say you are not a knowledgeable fella, but to answer your questions, this is my experience with rotor to wing guys coming into training.

My recommendation is that if you are serious about coming to the 121 airline world, make sure that you read up on instrument stuff. Dig in to the Instrument Pilot Handbook and maybe even go take a couple of IFR flights even if it's in a FRASCA. The last thing you'll want to have to gather while you're trying to figure out what the autopilot is doing is your situational awareness (where you are, etc)

Hopefully, other guys will fill in here and correct me if need be. This is all just my experience.


PM me if you have any questions or want more detail about training.
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Old 07-10-2018, 04:48 PM   #8  
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If you are really interested in working for a 121 airline you need to be equipped with the ability to fly airline flights. In my experience, the guys that couldn't make it through the program weren't even failing on callouts, they were failing because they couldn't fly instruments. Don't get me wrong, there are a multitude of reasons that guys are busting out of training. All of them can be summated by saying they just aren't ready for this type of flying. I've seen guys not make it from not being able to program the FMC. I've also seen guys not be able to maintain straight and level +/- 700ft. The biggest recurring issue I've seen amongst the Rotor guys that don't make it is a complete lack of instrument skills and knowledge coupled with a very poor understanding of the autopilot and how to interface with it to make the airplane do what you want. When you fly this jet or any jet these days, it is absolutely critical you understand the autopilot. When you took your checkrides in the past, you were evaluated on your ability to control the airplane and maintain that control within a specific set of parameters set forth by some regulatory agency. In the civilian side of things that's the Practical Test Standards. When you fly this jet, you're going to be graded on the same thing, but there's a whole new facet to flying it: Automation. 90% of the guys that washout (from my experience) failed on this. You're going to have to fly this bird in very tight ATP standards with automation, so if you have no idea what each and every button does and how to verify with the airplane on the Flight Mode Annunciator what it's trying to do, you will not make it. I guarantee you. The Rotor guys I saw come through had very little automation experience and by the time I got to see them, they had already made it through systems and mostly through Systems Integration Training. Needless to say, if you make it to SIM with very little knowledge of how to use the autopilot, you won't do well.


The other big problem I saw was instrument skills. If you don't know how to identify a fix on an approach or know where you are without seeing outside, you will not make it. I saw a rotor guy who didn't know what DME was. If you don't know what DME is, you really aren't equipped for airline flying.


I tell guys this. The 121 training environment is a bring your own tools environment. What I mean by that, is that the programs at most regionals are not AQP and therefor there's no "gate" style training to pass before moving on (e.g. you don't do procedures stuff and then take a small checkride on that before moving onto emergencies). You have to bring all the tools required to "build" your repertoire of airline flying skills. You will not have time and you will not be taught in any portion of the training what a VOR, NDB, DME, ILS, LDA, Standard Instrument Departure (SID), Standard Terminal Arrival Route (STAR), etc is. You will be expected to show up with all of this knowledge. Within the first couple of GFS and SIMS you'll be going through how to shoot an approach in this plane. If you're shooting your first ILS in 2+ years and are a little fuzzy on DME, you're way behind.


I'm not trying to belittle you or in any way say you are not a knowledgeable fella, but to answer your questions, this is my experience with rotor to wing guys coming into training.

My recommendation is that if you are serious about coming to the 121 airline world, make sure that you read up on instrument stuff. Dig in to the Instrument Pilot Handbook and maybe even go take a couple of IFR flights even if it's in a FRASCA. The last thing you'll want to have to gather while you're trying to figure out what the autopilot is doing is your situational awareness (where you are, etc)

Hopefully, other guys will fill in here and correct me if need be. This is all just my experience.


PM me if you have any questions or want more detail about training.

Well said. The only thing I would add to this is make sure you keep up and study in training. You'd be amazed how many guys fail out for taking orals, etc way too lightly. Really important to know your flows and procedures before you get to the GFS, and the SIM. Those sessions should be for polishing up little things, not learning big things.

Not a bad idea to have a desktop simulator on a laptop with you to chair fly some of the SIM scenarios either, particularly if you are having issues with basic instrument flying or flying approaches.

Is also not unusual to have an issue in training. Just make sure you keep the right attitude with it and you will survive. Have a bad attitude or have to many issues and you are gone. Also make sure you don't waste your mulligans on silly things like showing up for a check ride with an 8710 filled out improperly (or not at all), showing up late, or not showing up prepared for a GFS or Sim session.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:12 PM   #9  
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Originally Posted by NobodyLikesMe View Post
If you are really interested in working for a 121 airline you need to be equipped with the ability to fly airline flights. In my experience, the guys that couldn't make it through the program weren't even failing on callouts, they were failing because they couldn't fly instruments. Don't get me wrong, there are a multitude of reasons that guys are busting out of training. All of them can be summated by saying they just aren't ready for this type of flying. I've seen guys not make it from not being able to program the FMC. I've also seen guys not be able to maintain straight and level +/- 700ft. The biggest recurring issue I've seen amongst the Rotor guys that don't make it is a complete lack of instrument skills and knowledge coupled with a very poor understanding of the autopilot and how to interface with it to make the airplane do what you want. When you fly this jet or any jet these days, it is absolutely critical you understand the autopilot. When you took your checkrides in the past, you were evaluated on your ability to control the airplane and maintain that control within a specific set of parameters set forth by some regulatory agency. In the civilian side of things that's the Practical Test Standards. When you fly this jet, you're going to be graded on the same thing, but there's a whole new facet to flying it: Automation. 90% of the guys that washout (from my experience) failed on this. You're going to have to fly this bird in very tight ATP standards with automation, so if you have no idea what each and every button does and how to verify with the airplane on the Flight Mode Annunciator what it's trying to do, you will not make it. I guarantee you. The Rotor guys I saw come through had very little automation experience and by the time I got to see them, they had already made it through systems and mostly through Systems Integration Training. Needless to say, if you make it to SIM with very little knowledge of how to use the autopilot, you won't do well.


The other big problem I saw was instrument skills. If you don't know how to identify a fix on an approach or know where you are without seeing outside, you will not make it. I saw a rotor guy who didn't know what DME was. If you don't know what DME is, you really aren't equipped for airline flying.


I tell guys this. The 121 training environment is a bring your own tools environment. What I mean by that, is that the programs at most regionals are not AQP and therefor there's no "gate" style training to pass before moving on (e.g. you don't do procedures stuff and then take a small checkride on that before moving onto emergencies). You have to bring all the tools required to "build" your repertoire of airline flying skills. You will not have time and you will not be taught in any portion of the training what a VOR, NDB, DME, ILS, LDA, Standard Instrument Departure (SID), Standard Terminal Arrival Route (STAR), etc is. You will be expected to show up with all of this knowledge. Within the first couple of GFS and SIMS you'll be going through how to shoot an approach in this plane. If you're shooting your first ILS in 2+ years and are a little fuzzy on DME, you're way behind.


I'm not trying to belittle you or in any way say you are not a knowledgeable fella, but to answer your questions, this is my experience with rotor to wing guys coming into training.

My recommendation is that if you are serious about coming to the 121 airline world, make sure that you read up on instrument stuff. Dig in to the Instrument Pilot Handbook and maybe even go take a couple of IFR flights even if it's in a FRASCA. The last thing you'll want to have to gather while you're trying to figure out what the autopilot is doing is your situational awareness (where you are, etc)

Hopefully, other guys will fill in here and correct me if need be. This is all just my experience.


PM me if you have any questions or want more detail about training.

Exactly, they're not ready for the type of flying. It's amazing how they really have no idea what's expected. Some of the guys I saw made me question how they had a paying flying job before this. I think as airline pilots we get a bad rap in the industry as lazy and we don't do anything but monitor the computers but you really have to know what you're doing to be able to do that! If you come in with no experience you at least have to be a good pilot that knows your stuff.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:45 PM   #10  
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Wow everyone thanks for replying.

To be specific I fly Mike model Blackhawks that's have a flight director and works very well for instrument flying. DME is a thing inside that aircraft. Once turned final it will capture course and glide slope of an ILS and hold it very well. I refrain from making turns using the cyclic and just turn knobs on the flight director and leave the computer to hold airspeed and altitude for me. As
Opposed to the Lima model IFR is a breeze and very enjoyable. This is just some of the stuff it does. However we dont do RNAV approaches. GPS is in the aircraft is corruptable.

Me personally as a pilot I LOVE instruments and I would fly IFR all the time if I could. There are some things I will need to review such as STARs. I did SIDs at flight school however I will review then again. Idk if this is the attitude or mindset the airlines are looking for but it is mine. Im worried not having flown an airplane and hoping to learn a particular airframe in 3 months is enough time. But I look back on it. That's about what I had in flight school anyway. I am allowed to utilize the sim to practice procedures and callouts in my time off yes? Or do I need that flight sim software in my room or was that just a good idea?

When people do fail what happens to them? Are they removed from the course? Told thank you for being here but you need to leave now?
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