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Why are B scales so bad?

Old 08-15-2017, 08:39 AM
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Default Why are B scales so bad?

Hello guys,

I'm a new hire at a regional trying to learn more about the industry. I keep hearing negative things about a B scale, but all things considered, it seems to me it would be better than the current situation.

With that said, I'm a newbie, so can someone explain to me exactly what a B scale is and why it's not worth pursuing?

Thanks!
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Old 08-15-2017, 08:49 AM
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It is very easy to Google "airline b-scale" and find more than enough reading to answer your question.

Here's a start:
http://archive.fortune.com/magazines...5523/index.htm
The war started back in 1983, when a growth imperative gripped major airlines as they raced to compete with low-fare startups. Crandall convinced the pilots that the airline couldn't buy planes to add routes unless new pilots could be hired at drastically reduced pay scales. It seemed like another brilliant Crandall win-win at the time. The pilots who were then at American got to keep their pay, and the new planes offered them opportunities to move more quickly from co-pilot to captain status. Meanwhile, with each new cut-rate pilot, Crandall lowered his average labor costs, all the better to finance the debt incurred in buying the new jets.

Several years later, however, this move came back to haunt him. The pilots hired at what came to be known as the "b-scales" developed a sort of inferiority complex. "All of a sudden, there was a whole group of people working there who were extremely resentful of the fact that the person sitting next to them was making a lot more money for exactly the same job," says Larry Crawford, president of Avitas, an aviation consulting firm in Reston, Virginia. "They began to wonder what kind of scheme was coming at them next." It might seem strange, given that many of their jobs might not have even been created without the b-scales, but they still resented their status as second-class citizens.

Thanks to growth made possible by all the cut-rate hiring, American expanded so quickly that the b-scale pilots eventually made up the majority of the union that Crandall is haggling with today. The b-scalers, whom some at the airline now refer to as the Killer B's, are largely responsible for a grassroots movement called Pilots Defending the Profession that has sprung up on the Internet during the latest round of negotiations. Though the union leadership had approved a tentative settlement offer from American last year, the leaders of the splinter movement persuaded the pilots to turn it down (by almost 2 to 1) when the full membership voted on ratification in January.
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:40 AM
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Thanks for the link, hacker. I was under the impression a B scale was a lower pay scale for flying smaller aircraft like RJs on the mainline seniority list.
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by da42pilot View Post
Thanks for the link, hacker. I was under the impression a B scale was a lower pay scale for flying smaller aircraft like RJs on the mainline seniority list.
Technically, not a "B-scale" from back in the day AA or anyone else.

DAL's/AAG's rates are pretty much FOR THE MOST PART in line with pay for size of equipment. At least NOW.

Although the 717/E-Jet is more flexible than the traditional "RJ".
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Old 08-15-2017, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by da42pilot View Post
Hello guys,

I'm a new hire at a regional trying to learn more about the industry. I keep hearing negative things about a B scale, but all things considered, it seems to me it would be better than the current situation.

With that said, I'm a newbie, so can someone explain to me exactly what a B scale is and why it's not worth pursuing?

Thanks!
B-scale is lower pay for the same work. Originally proposed in the 80's in the wake of deregulation and became a strike issue at UAL.

Here's F Lee Bailey deconstructing b-scale over 30 years ago.

https://youtu.be/_ZLmxIQnLeI?t=12m21s

At the time, the b-scale proposal would offer substantially lower rates (think 1st year new hire rates) for 4-6 years, then spring up to a-scale rates where incremental COLA raises were given.

Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-tier_system
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:36 PM
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Unions in general are constantly waging their own internal wars to keep their pilots "unified". I worked for an airline that has not only B-scales, but C scales, and D scales. The infighting and chaos that exists within the union from this concept is a cancer that no labor group can fight. B-Scales and the like MUST be prevented and stopped in order to keep any semblance of unity, and as a result, bargaining power and leverage. You must look long term when it comes to this. I promise you that your career will be much better in the long run if you can prevent it. Like so many things in life, it pays to be tough short term, to have it good long term.
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Old 08-16-2017, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by John Carr View Post
Technically, not a "B-scale" from back in the day AA or anyone else.

DAL's/AAG's rates are pretty much FOR THE MOST PART in line with pay for size of equipment. At least NOW.

Although the 717/E-Jet is more flexible than the traditional "RJ".
The AA B-scale was for ALL airplanes, correct?

If all RJ flying is brought back in-house on the same seniority list, with a flow straight to the A-scale dependent only on seniority, would that be acceptable? Keep it exclusively for RJs, protected by whatever is necessary, scope clauses, etc.

If there's confusion with the term B-scale or if the term has too much historical baggage, perhaps rebrand it. The regionals are a defecto B-scale anyways, except with numerous additional disadvantages because they're separate companies and seniority lists.

I wonder why major airlines pilots would not want this. It adds people to the seniority list, which increases job security. Surely getting pushed back into the B-scale wouldn't be as bad as a furlough. Or maybe it's the major airlines that don't want this to happen?
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by da42pilot View Post

If there's confusion with the term B-scale or if the term has too much historical baggage, perhaps rebrand it. The regionals are a defecto B-scale anyways, except with numerous additional disadvantages because they're separate companies and seniority lists.
Historical baggage? Seriously? Be a student of the profession and learn what the strike issues were for those who have come before you.

The '83 CAL strike was over the strategic use of bankruptcy to slash pilot wages, the 85 UAL strike was over b-scale - different pay for the same work, the '97 AA strike was (largely) over deployment of 50 seat RJ - outsourcing jobs.

In each case, it was airline management trying to avoid paying a pilot what they're worth.

Starting out at as a new pilot at a regional airline, it's paramount that you learn the lessons of the last 50 years in pilot labor. Failure to understand the methods used by management will ensure that you and your peers fall victim again and again.

There's only confusion with the term B-scale for those who are unwilling to learn the lesson.
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by da42pilot View Post
The regionals are a defecto B-scale anyways
Incorrect. A B-scale is a very specific thing and calling a regional airline one is similar to calling some selfish prick who flies OT during contract negotiations a scab.

Same airplane, same company, same seat for less pay. It's that simple. One FO in a 75 seat RJ at company X flying some of the same pax after they just flew in with another FO on a mainline 757.... not the same thing.
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:19 AM
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The regionals are more like a C Scale.
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