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Old 07-09-2018, 12:07 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Octaflugaron View Post
Absurd....
Why is this absurd? You know this is exactly how this scenario would play out. I’d love to hear your alternative fantasyland version. Please expand on “Absurd....” It’s a little vague.

Last edited by BKbigfish; 07-09-2018 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 07-09-2018, 12:09 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Octaflugaron View Post
Right to Work does not make you a freeloader. It gives the worker the right NOT to pay homage to a union with which he or she disagrees. Compulsory union membership or compulsory dues is unconstitutional. That is what I was referring to when I said, "make union membership optional." This has been well established. Workers aren't freeloaders. The money they pay to unions is not their leverage. The work they do on the shop floor (cockpits for us airline types) is their leverage. Without this work, union bosses would have zilch. BTW, what percentage of your dues goes to the national union? Want a union that REALLY works for pilots? Elect a union that ONLY represents your work group. Make it so that 100% of your dues goes to your pilots and your contract negotiations, etc.
If you benefit from a union negotiated contract and you do not pay dues to that union you are a freeloader. Full stop.
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Old 07-09-2018, 12:12 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Octaflugaron View Post
No. Pilots (any workers) should be able to work wherever they wish. This is America. And they should be able to do so without the requirement to pay money to a union. Some industries are set up where workers can't even apply without first paying money to a union or joining before they are employed with a company. That is clearly wrong and it is changing fast.

Independent, nonunion professional educator groups have been established in many states. These groups are providing teachers and student teachers with benefits comparable to those of the NEA and AFT, at lower dues. Many do not support any political agenda or ideas which do not directly affect education. They may also provide liability insurance protection for members, which is comparable to that offered by the NEA and AFT. The same arrangement could very easily work in the airline pilot profession.
You are correct on your first point here. Pilots should be allowed to “work wherever they wish.” Do you not find it interesting that the vast majority of professional pilots “wish” to work at unionized airlines? Why do you think that might be?
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Old 07-09-2018, 07:19 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Octaflugaron View Post
No. Pilots (any workers) should be able to work wherever they wish. This is America.
How is this not the case now?


Originally Posted by Octaflugaron View Post
they should be able to do so without the requirement to pay money to a union.
Ok. There are plenty of non-union pilot jobs out there. But if they work at a union airline and under the protections of a CBA, it would only be fair that they pay their fair share. "Right to Work" with the requirement that a union still provides those services without collecting dues from non-members is nothing more than government-mandated theft of services. The true intent is to bleed the union dry, and you and I both know that.

So how would this scenario of yours work exactly?

Option 1: Closed shop becomes a thing of the past. More and more pilots freeload and eventually the union goes bankrupt.

Option 2: Closed shop becomes a thing of the past, non-members are free to negotiate their own pay/benefits package. Do you honestly think people will do better bargaining individually? No one on your side of the argument has yet to explain why major airline pay exceeds non-union airline pay, or (non-union) corporate pay, or why Netjets pilots make more than their corporate brethren flying the same type of aircraft. Take a look at expats flying overseas for non-union outfits like the ME3 and ask them how well they sleep at night without union protection.

Why do you think no pilot group has every voted to decertify a union and switch to a "more direct relationship" with management? Have you ever talked to a jetBlue pilot? Why do you think they voted in ALPA?
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Old 07-09-2018, 07:07 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by GogglesPisano View Post
How is this not the case now?




Ok. There are plenty of non-union pilot jobs out there. But if they work at a union airline and under the protections of a CBA, it would only be fair that they pay their fair share. "Right to Work" with the requirement that a union still provides those services without collecting dues from non-members is nothing more than government-mandated theft of services. The true intent is to bleed the union dry, and you and I both know that.

So how would this scenario of yours work exactly?

Option 1: Closed shop becomes a thing of the past. More and more pilots freeload and eventually the union goes bankrupt.

Option 2: Closed shop becomes a thing of the past, non-members are free to negotiate their own pay/benefits package. Do you honestly think people will do better bargaining individually? No one on your side of the argument has yet to explain why major airline pay exceeds non-union airline pay, or (non-union) corporate pay, or why Netjets pilots make more than their corporate brethren flying the same type of aircraft. Take a look at expats flying overseas for non-union outfits like the ME3 and ask them how well they sleep at night without union protection.

Why do you think no pilot group has every voted to decertify a union and switch to a "more direct relationship" with management? Have you ever talked to a jetBlue pilot? Why do you think they voted in ALPA?
SkyWest is by far the best example. They are a non-union pilot group. They do better than almost every ALPA pilot group in the regional category. The only ones doing better from what I see are Endeavor (ALPA) and Republic which is IBT. Many ALPA pilots at regional carriers are making upwards of 20% less than SkyWest pilots.

It can be done and without all the contention, politics, union corruption and Loss of 2% of your pay to a union that spends the money of its members on things pilots don't always support.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:03 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Octaflugaron View Post
SkyWest is by far the best example. They are a non-union pilot group. They do better than almost every ALPA pilot group in the regional category. The only ones doing better from what I see are Endeavor (ALPA) and Republic which is IBT. Many ALPA pilots at regional carriers are making upwards of 20% less than SkyWest pilots.

It can be done and without all the contention, politics, union corruption and Loss of 2% of your pay to a union that spends the money of its members on things pilots don't always support.
And why do you think Skywest is such a great place to work? Do you really think they operate in a vacuum?

You haven't answered any of my questions regarding legacy pay, or Netjets pay vs corporate? Nor have you provided a single example of a pilot group voting to decertify a union and replace it with nothing.

Waiting ....
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:20 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by GogglesPisano View Post
And why do you think Skywest is such a great place to work? Do you really think they operate in a vacuum?

You haven't answered any of my questions regarding legacy pay, or Netjets pay vs corporate? Nor have you provided a single example of a pilot group voting to decertify a union and replace it with nothing.

Waiting ....
Market forces. The regionals have all seen substantial bonuses and raises all of which had to do with staffing and market forces. The unions had nothing to do with any of that.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:46 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Slaphappy View Post
Market forces. The regionals have all seen substantial bonuses and raises all of which had to do with staffing and market forces. The unions had nothing to do with any of that.
Still haven’t answered the Netjets vs corporate pilot pay disparity. Or legacy vs corporate pay. Or why no pilot group has ever voted out a union without replacing it with another.
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:43 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by GogglesPisano View Post
Still haven’t answered the Netjets vs corporate pilot pay disparity. Or legacy vs corporate pay. Or why no pilot group has ever voted out a union without replacing it with another.


Besides FlexJet.


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Old 07-10-2018, 01:36 PM
  #40  
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I am a non-member. Every month I calculate my association fee and happily send the check. My EXCO and, when applicable, my Negotiating Committee speak for me and I have no issue with paying my fair share to ensure they continue to do so. You can and should carry your own water.

The fee is about 7% less than full membership dues. That 7% is money that does not go to support the International, which absolutely DOES NOT speak for me.

You should not, either voluntarily or through coercion, support positions with which you disagree. Yes, it is a First Amendment thing.
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