More dissatisfied ALPA customers?
 

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...2-pilots_N.htm

Interesting read

Seems like the big problem is the fight between the junior AWA pilots and the until-now furloughed USA pilots. Seeing as all have been recalled and the company has plans to begin off the street hiring, it seems to me that it's now a nonissue. Doesn't matter who gets the bottom of the totem pole, they'll move up soon enough anyway when the new hires come on board.

Just seems like they're in-fighting over a now-irrelevent issue, rather than just working collectively to get their bankruptcy concessions back.

God forbid East pilots become EQUAL to West pilots...

I guess we'll all just see about that...

There has also been a beginning of a "Dump ALPA" process at UAL. And, as many of us are praying for a dump ALPA at NWA.

I have paid ALPA over $30,000 in dues. And, I am now monetarily worse off than I was 15 years ago.

Why am I paying ALPA dues again??

They don't do much for anyone.

It would be far better is all pilots of all carriers could form one national union with at least common benefits, QOL for all. I can understand the pay issue being negotiated on an airline by airline basis. The one-country-one pilots union works quite well in other countries. I know that ALPA, Teamsters and other entities would fight against this do to the loss of revenue base.

I notice both your posts are anti-ALPA.

Your screen name is SCRWDbyMGMT....not SCRWDbyALPA.

I'll speak slowly so that BoilerUp can understand. I was, and continue to be, SCRWDbyMGMT. Now, it seems to me that If I wasn't getting SCRWDbyMGMT then my representative Union would be doing it's job. However, since I am currently being SCRWDbyMGMT, then it seems logical to assume that my representative union is not doing their job. In fact, I know I've read this somewhere, all ALPA pilots (and non-ALPA) have suffered massive career degradation. So, I think it is safe to assume that all ALPA pilots have been SCRWDbyALPA.
Of course, if BoilerUp is happy with the status quo, please pass him another glass of Kool-Aid.:rolleyes:

I was a former Midway CRJ guy, who was senior to almost every 737 copilot and I got laid off in complete violation of our contract and the seniority order thanks to my great bro's at ALPA who stood up for me like I would stand up for Osama bin Laden. Not a big ALPA fan but they are the same as every airline pilot union, run by the senior captains that dont really care too much about the little guy, it is what it is...

You work for NWA, right? Just how powerful do you expect your union to be when it is subject to your company's bankruptcy proceedings? What specifically did you expect from them then and what do you expect from them now? Do you honestly think any other union could have served you better under those circumstances?

True, all ALPA pilots shave suffered massive career degradation...but have all concessionary agreements not been ratified by a majority of the pilots that actually make up ALPA? Is it fair to lay blame solely upon the leadership instead of the pilots that approved those concessionary agreements?

I understand that ALPA is made up of PILOTS, many of whom have unrealistic expectations about collective bargaining and won't take ownership of their own situation. These are often the same who unfairly blame others when they should be shining the spotlight brightly upon themselves and their own pilot group.

No need for biting sarcasm...but if it makes you feel better, by all means go ahead.:rolleyes:

If you look over the posts. There are far more anti-ALPA posts than positive ALPA posts. But, that might be just biting sarcasm.:confused:

With all due respect, I'd like to throw something in here. If you really want to be SCRWDbyMGMT, throw the union off of the property. Then bend over and get ready to take it. Where I work back in the early 90's we were asked to "Give us just one year to fix all of the problems before you make the decision to unionize. Just one year." We voted the union down giving them that year. We were then bent over (we didn't know it was coming so I guess you could call it a form of financial rape) and worked just as fast and as hard as management could make it happen.

ALPA sure isn't perfect. But having a contract brings me a great deal of comfort. The idea of 4,600 independent contractors working against each other is not appealing at all.

Interesting. The anti alpa post are intelligent and provide facts. The Pro ALPA posts, which are provided to you from paid ALPA employees with your dues are based on fear not on facts.

Bottom line, non alpa carriers are fairing quite well, ie: Southwest, American Airlines, Etc. They will not address this with facts, just fear, because they fear they will lose their cush job that you pay for with you hard earned dues.

BoilerUP vbmenu_register("postmenu_235984", true);
Gets Weekends Off

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Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: CL65 FO
Posts: 1,162


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I'm disappointed in ALPA National leadership because they didn't do anything to protect the career progression of younger pilots regarding this change. I shouldn't be surprised, however, that their proposal provided a windfall to older pilots who not only will get another 5 years at the top of their earning potential but benefited from advancement of seniority due to Age 60 retirements for their entire career.

A better solution would have been to require the PIC of all 121 operations to be under the age of 60. Older pilots who wanted or needed to work would get another 5 years, likely at the top of FO pay and seniority, while not impinging on the career progression of younger pilots below them. "

Boiler quotes above

__________________________________

So Boiler, you want it both ways, you want the old out if their Airline was having financial trouble, if their company is doing well, you want them out at 60. That sir, makes you a hypocrite and poster boy with what is wrong with this world today.

You are a selfish, spoiled brat. Your lineage should be ended for the benefit of society.

In your native lingo this means, Your Mama!

Interesting. I tell you how I feel (fact) and some poge comes in and says I'm trying to scare you. My post was not pro ALPA. It was pro contract. That lovely little device that provides you with, at the very least, the minimum of protections. And what the poge apparently fails to understand is that my ALPA is not the same as the ALPA on other properties. Each negotiates their own deal.

Bottom line, there is at least one ALPA carrier that is doing OK. It's not perfect, but having experienced the alternative, I'll take our contract in a heartbeat. What each of you supports is your own decision. If that scares you, you should probably seek out professional help. My cush job not withstanding.

Name of ALPA carrier doing well and justification for using ranger insignia, sir.

So your ALPA is ALPA but not other pilots ALPA. Your ALPA can do well but other ALPA pilots ALPA can not.

Thank you for describing ALPA to non ALPA carriers and the general public.

I have never said anything to that effect, and to make that assumption off of those two posts is a STRETCH by even the most active of imaginations.

So....I'm a "spoiled brat", "hypocrite", "poster boy with what is wrong with this world today" simply because my opinions differ from yours? Thanks for the kind words, I'm sure you're nothing but objective in your judgment of my character.

I've always stated that my take on Age 60 is selfish in nature, but it is absolutely no less selfish than those lobbying for a change who benefited their entire careers from seniority advancement because of Age 60 retirements and who will now enjoy another 5 years at the expense of furloughed pilots, junior pilots, and folks like myself that are young and trying to move up in our careers. Requiring 121 PICs to be under 60 not only provides 5 more years of earning for those who want or need to work longer, it also preserves career advancement for younger pilots.

God forbid there be talk of a workable compromise...:rolleyes:

"Your mama?" How can a phrase from 1980s pop culture be considered an insult in 2007?:confused:

With all the ad-hominem attacks you're throwing around, this post is rather ironic...because nothing you've posted in this thread is either intelligent or provides facts countering a pro-ALPA argument.

All ALPA carriers are working against each other right now.

Name a ALPA carrier right now who is assisting another ALPA carrier. Name one in the past. You can not.

Fedex.

I don't have to justify ANYTHING to you. There are quite a few people who frequent these forums who can vouch for my use of the insignia. I earned it. The hard way. And I was an enlisted guy. "Sir" doesn't impress me too much.

Vietnam, 75th Rangers, Chu Lai, Da Nang 70-71.

Your turn. Justify your crappy attitude.

I'm not even going to bother to try to explain this one to you. You plainly do not understand the dynamics of ALPA. Again, it's not perfect. But once you live without a contract you very rapidly begin to understand.

My pleasure.

Why bother replying at all to this jerk? He dreams he could wear a Ranger tab.

Onyx's on me next time we meet.:D

You're right. Blame it on temporary insanity or my short fuse.

I just bought a box. They're in the humidor drinking large and copious quantities of J.D. I'll be on the planet next month for whatever the hell they call that AQP stuff now. Check my calender and see if we're there at the same time and call me if we are. I'll pack a couple of extra Onyx's for you.

Rangers lead the way!

Sorry, force of habit.

Throwing ALPA out is the FIRST STEP into establishing a new, stronger NATIONAL UNION with a NATIONAL CONTRACT, ie. 737 pilots at carrier "A" gets paid the same as 737 pilots at carrier "B". (No national seniority, I think it would be too hard to establish.)

We need a National union that has some backbone. ALPA only cares about itself and their own high paying jobs.

YES to National Seniority list.

Just because you think it would be hard to establish is not the reason to not do it. It should be a goal. If a pilot at Airline A wants to work at Airline C or D due to QOL or a base closer to his home then he should be allowed to do that. Restrictions would have to put in place to protect guys at Airline C or D but there is no reason why someone should have to commute from California to NYC to fly for a living.

AHHH, the JD infusion! I fondly recall enjoying them on the walk from the Rhiga Royal to the Noodle Shop. I really miss the long-haul. But hey, I'm on a 39hr layover in GRR right now! You can't beat that.:D

Regards,
Clutch

You didn't complain pre-911 did you..........??

Just gave a CAL newhire a jumpseat ride the other day. He was "anti-ALPA/anti-union", but was bragging about how CALALPA/ALPA jumped in to help his wife (another CAL pilot newhire) obtain a TAX FREE check for $25,000, and disability payments of around $2100 a month after she was diagnosed with a form of cancer (they are expecting her to have a full recovery back to flying status in a couple more months). While the treatments are in progress, they are both "enjoying her time off with paid vacations courtesy of ALPA"..............his words, not mine. Talk about kicking a gift horse in the mouth. My FO and I were both appalled. :mad:

I've researched this pretty extensively after hearing the idea from another pilot. What we need is to get rid of the unions. The old union doesn't work in today's dynamic airline environment. And it's going to get more dynamic with more mergers, companies going bye bye and new conglomerate companies starting. Having several unions with each individual MEC's and divisions will not work and mangement knows it. They've been planning their strategies against it for years. Look at the USAirways / America West Merger for instance. Management merged ALL other employee groups via Date of Hire but thanks to ALPA one side won the lottery and the other lost years of seniority and career expectations. Without ALPA the company would have most likely merged the pilot list like all other workers the only true fair way in our business; Date of Hire.

What we really need in this country is a Guild. Similar to the Actors and Performers Guild. Every 121 pilot in the nation would be a member of the Pilot's Guild. This would create in a sense a master seniority list. The Guild would hire, fire, and manage all pilots. The Guild would train all pilots. A company that say needs 100 Airbus pilots would come to the Guild and the Guild would offer the next 100 non-working pilots in seniority order a job at that company. The Guild would set salaries, working conditions, benefits, and all other aspecs of the profession. Pilots would become a fixed cost like an airplane or landing fee and every airline would pay the same for a 5 year Airbus FO. No airline would have to have a training department as the Guild would train the pilots and the companies would pay a training fee for each pilot. The FAA would love this as it would be the perfect form of standardization and safety. Every Airbus 319 crew whether it be Northwest, USAir, or United would be operating the same way. Those that didn't join the Guild and tried to work for companies feelance would be scabs. We would truly have a national seniority list, a huge group with lots of power, and wouldn't feel the need to stab one another in the back to get seniority or a better position. There is much more to the Guild idea and several people are seriously working on this. There is just too much to write on this forum. It's like laying out the engineering plans for a city in one paragraph.

The two biggest obstacles are money and the old unions. Someone would have to bankroll the idea and it would cost to get rid of the old unions. Yes it's a monumental task but face it; the current unions may in the short term get you another day off and a few dollars an hour more, but they don't and can't address the larger and long term issues that will be facing our pilot group in the near future. Think about it.

Tell that to any West captain that would have been junior to furloughed AAA pilots if integrated via DOH.

And try telling a 1988 USAir hire pilot that was NEVER furloughed that he's junior to a 2004 AW new hire. How would you like that? Speak of what you know about because you have no idea pal.

Once and if the seniority list is implemented EVERY AW pilot will become a Captain while East pilots hired in 1988 will still be F/Os. The West pilots will capitalize on the East's attrition. Over 300 retirements a year. The West goes from a regional airline to a Legacy carrier overnight suddenly inheriting things they never had such as international flying and USAir's domination of the North East. Let's not forget for several straight quarters the west division has been losing millions while the east has been making hundreds of millions all the while the east being paid less for the same airplanes, pay more for less medical benefits, and make profits to subsidize the west's profit sharing. Remember if you "lose" money you don't get profit sharing boys and girls. Funny how the west is losing money but earning profit sharing on the east's profits! Oh and who's name is on the airplanes? I wonder why? Do you think a NY businessman who rides the shuttle from NY to DC 5 times a week is going to buy a ticket on "America West" who? An American buddy told me that New Yorkers keep asking him if America West is the western division of American Airlines. Go figure.

AW did not bail out or buy USAir It was a "merger". Look up the definition if you don't know what it is. They saved each other and that is quoted by Mr. Doug Parker. Arbitration is not a contest. It's supposed to be a win win and give and take for both sides. What did the west give? 500 senior guys at USAir that are flying international get to stay there. Did you know that every one of them retires in less than two years and 200 have already retired! If this was not a windfall for AW then I'd like to know what is. Please tell me. And we have ALPA merger policy to thank for that one. A merger policy that allows ONE man (arbitrator) to make a decision affecting thousands of employees. Oh yea and the two pilots from other airlines that were helping the arbitrator wrote publically saying that the arbitrator was basically off his rocker and that they completely disagreed with his decision. Ah but ALPA merger policy states that those pilots have no official say.

So the young, dumb, and uninformed say, "Well you agreed to arbitration so you get what you get". Sure we also agree to judges but if the judge puts you in jail for 30 years for shoplifting then I think you may have something to say besides, "Oh well that was the judge's decision so I must agree. Duh". Those of you in ALPA beware. All we have in this business is seniority and that's based on your date of hire. That's what the rule was when we all started this game. ALPA and ALPA only in the 1980's messed with the sacred idea of seniority. Starting with the TWA/Ozark merger ALPA changed their stance, "Everything is seniority..........unless this happens............and this guy was hired then........and this company merges with that.....yada yada yada" They've corrupted the sanctity of seniority and now it's up in the air. With ALPA your seniority and date of hire means absolutely nothing. They've taken a 50+ years stance of strict date of hire seniority and suddently made it negotiable. Do you understand what I'm saying? "IT'S NEGOTIABLE". Negotiable by who pays who off or who stands to gain the most money. Corruption and greed. So sit back and shun your brothers and sisters at USAir. What did they ever do to you except give you jumpseats and do everything they could for their fellow crewmembers while going through hell with some of the worst airline managements in history. They are the old Piedmont which was once the darling of the South; the old PSA out west; and Allegheny of PA. Some of the nicest crewmembers I've ever known yet they get bashed on this forum by those that think that they are themselves gods born with 2000 hours in their logbook. Just wait. This is an era of big mergers and by the time you wake up and really see what is going on it may be too late. Your seniority is up for grabs for whomever is willing to buy it and ALPA will happily sell it.

A word of advice from a still young guy that's been flying this business for over 20years and has been in ALPA, APA, and The Teamsters. I've "been to the puppet show and seen the strings".

The facts: ALPA bought a program that ran different senarios of merging the America West and USAirways pilots. The computer spit out 10 senarios. They ranged from the best to the worst for ALL pilots. The best senario put ALL pilots from both west and east at the top 10% of seniority in their last few years before retirement. Sounds fair. Everyone retires a Captain. This best case senario just so happened to be almost identical to a date of hire merged list. This was the best case for ALL pilots. Isn't that what ALPA is supposed to be about; the best for everyone? All 10 senarios were given to the arbitrator and guess which one he ruled to be in effect? #10. The worst senario. That is fact. You just have to ask youself what made this 80+ yr old arbitrator rule from a best for everyone to the worst senario that a computer program purchased by ALPA came up with? Bought off? Mad at someone? A lunatic? No one will ever know.

Yea I suppose a guy that was hired in 1988 that once held the position of Captain on the Airbus and 737 who was furloughed for only 3 months out of his 20 years should sit junior to an America West guy that was hired in 1998 and was in junior high when the '88 hire guy was flying for USAir. Yep you're right. :rolleyes:

I can answer half that question - FedEx is an ALPA carrier and they seem to be doing quite well. As for the Ranger insignia, just a guess but......

US Airways is smart enough to dump ALPA. However, I understand that UAL has since dropped their efforts to remove ALPA. Looks like ALPA will be around for a while. Go help us!

US AIRWAYS to dump ALPA.
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/071004/20071004006047.html?.v=1

Ranger, I'm not going to be sarcastic, biting or otherwise, but a contract is only as good as the union's will to fight for it. Ask anyone at Emery Worldwide how long ALPA fought for us and our contract (which by the way was touted by ALPA as being "the best first contract ever" by the roadshow preparing to shove it down our throats. I agree with you about a contract being necessary, but ALPA isn't the union to fight for it.

I'll say it again: A contract is only as good as the union behind it.

I agree. Read my response again. It was not a pro-ALPA response, it was a pro-contract response. I've lived on both sides of the fence and certainly don't ever want to revisit the side that gives management full control over every facet of my working life. We're all pretty much the same in this business. If we could figure out a way to cut a better deal with the Brotherhood of Pipefitters and Wrench Twisters, we'd do it.

We might differ slightly on just one point. I tend to lay more credit/blame at the feet of the people who run the local union and not at the national level. Those folks wouldn't be the ones walking the picket line (for the most part) nor taking the hits.

Agree. However, to clarify, ALPA national has more control than some would think. They control the purse strings and the legal resources. At EWA we were placed inactive and our MEC replaced by a custodian that had run for MEC Chair and received less than 10% of the vote in the last election. Our members had NO say in what happened after the shutdown and our replacement by contractors. We were pretty much told to sit down and be quiet. So while in some cases the blame must go local, I don't see how it could in our case. We had to hire our own law firm just to force ALPA to take action against the company.

The East pilots spent their years working for a stagnant airline that had no real growth. That is not the fault of the West pilots. If you won't upgrade in your time left flying that is because you have spent your years flying for an airline that did not expand. We did not have that at AWA. We had 5 year Captains, heck we had 6 month Captains when I got hired in 1987. We doubled the size of the airline between 86 and 87. Why should we pay the price for your stagnant career? What was your career expectation the day before the merger was announced? About 1 month and you were out of cash. We (AWA) made the payroll for June of 05, that's how bad it was.

Parker can say what he wants to you guys back East but he cannot lie to the SEC. Look at the papers filed in bankruptcy court - US Airways was Aquired by AWA holdings. But you know, it doesn't really matter much now. The award was done by ALPA rules and you guys even got to pick the arbitrator - the same guy that gave the Shuttle guys a victory in their seniority award against you. That has to tell you how bad your case for DOH was.

By whining and moaning about the unfairness of it all you are doing nothing but dragging yourself down. You have a job, a job that can pay you a lot more and recover some of what you have lost in terms of pay and lifestyle. All you have to do is show up and attend the Joint Negotiation sessions, and get on board with a new contract.

Remember, the West pilots did not want you, UAL did not want you, no other carrier wanted you. So **** and get with the program. The sooner you guys lose the attitude and enjoy life the better we all will be.