Master Seniority List?
 

Has ALPA ever considdered creating a master seniority list?

They may have had another name for it, but essentially it would be a list that would allow pilots to carry their seniority if they choose to fly for another airline that was also represented by ALPA.

I've heard that it had been discussed before, but I haven't been able to find any further information on the topic. If any of you have some insight I'd like to learn more about it. Thanks.

Guess that could be a very good thing or a very bad thing depending on on what side of the line you are on! I can not say it hasn't been discussed before, but I highly doubt you will ever see something like this actually happen. Thats just my 2cents though.

This has been proposed numerous times, but has never seen the light of day. As long a ALPA is an "Association" of independent MECs, it won't happen.

The airlines would not go for it...they would lose control over who they hire. The only way to force them to go along would be a national strike...which of course is totally impossible under the RLA.

The powers-that-be REALLY don't want a strong national pilot union...for obvious reasons.

It's something that ALPA has been shoveling for over 20 years, just more of that famous ALPA B.S.

master seniority list - another way to NOT encourage productivity by pilots.

Master/National Seniority List - It would depend how it is implemented. If you are suggesting that a 15 year Capt at company X can go work for Company Y and displace a 13 year Capt, then I would say your idea has not one shred of hope. There would be a never ending migration to whatever airline is offering the best pay at the present time... and that would be the least of the problems. If you are suggesting that it simply ensures your benefit levels, vacation time, retirement matching contributions and things of that nature you may be onto something usefull.

What would be needed would be some strong leadership from ALPA national to create a "basic pilot contract" that would be the model for all MEC's to use. Each MEC woudl remain free to negotiate their own additions to suit their unique needs of their airline and situation, but no MEC would be allowed to accept less than the basic contract. This would include modification to the furlough/recall sections requiring that airlines would have to offer employment to pilots on the ALPA furlough list prior to hiring from the street.
This is done in many Government jobs. For example, in several states when police of firemen are laid off they go onto a layoff list. Before any city or town in the state can hire from the street they have to offer a job to people on the layoff list.

Another shift that would be a good move would be for the airlines to stop managing our 401k's and retirement accounts. Instead, each airline would make their contributions to retirement accounts held/managed by ALPA. If a pilot was furloughed by company A, and subsequently offered a job at Company B, he/she would simply get their contributions from their new airline.

Basically, ALPA needs to run more like the screen actors guild.... yes, mr airline executive, we'll be happy to fly your planes for you, here is our contract, here is what you will pay towards our retirement, and you will hire furloughed pilots before hiring off the street.

why would an airline ever hire a 13 year captain and pay him 13 year pay, when they can hire a brand new guy and upgrade an 8 year guy to captain? :confused:

why would management ever sign onto this plan? it would take an act of Congress, and not even Pelosi and Reid can pull that type of unionist silliness off. Although I'm sure they've tried.

Why? Because if ALPA national acted like they should, airlines would be required to hire furloughed ALPA pilots before hiring off the street.... very much like movie production firms are required to hire SAG members before employing non-SAG members.... and once employed, the new ones become SAG members.

ALPA needs to start forcing the airlines to consider pilots a commodity, much like their fuel, or property lease expenses. They pay what the fuel company tells them to pay, they pay the airport authority what the airport authority tells them to pay.... well, they need to pay ALPA pilots, what ALPA tells them to pay. We need to stop going to our own individual airlines, begging at the master table saying "please sir, may I have some more."

ALPA should establish a contract committee to create a basic ALPA pilot contract. The contract would cover everything that is in most contracts, and just establish a base line that no MEC would be authorized to go accept less than. Requiring them to hire from an ALPA seniority furlough list before hiring off the street would be included in all contracts. The basic contract would cover everything from Beech 1900's to A-380's in the pay sections... each MEC would simply use the equipment that was applicable to their airline. Minimum days off, minimum rest, maximum scheduled hours, maximum duty day.... all would be in the ALPA basic pilot contract. Each MEC would remain free to negotiate special perks unique to their airline, but not less than anything covered inthe basic ALPA pilot contract.


Why? Probably for the same reason that the cops and firemen in several states have this exact language.... their unions would not sign a contract until the requirement was agreed to hire from a layoff list before hiring from the street. Add to that that in a few states, they have moved the retirement from the city and towns to being managed atthe state level, so if you did move from one job to another, all that changed was where the contributions to your retirement came from. That same principle would also work at the airlines. If the 401k's and such were managed/held by ALPA, it would not be such a major pain in the neck to move from job to job.... all that would change is who makes the payments.
Now, to top all that off... in many states the police/fire are prohibited from striking by law... and they still got both of those things.

So, a blanket statement that it can't be done is not realistic. People with more hurdles than us have already done it.

ALPA cannot even protect its members from concessions on their current contracts, so I doubt they (or anyone else for that matter) can "force" and airline to do anything.

Fuel is market driven - there is greater need than there is supply. The opposite is true of the pilot pipeline.

Actors typically do not make a 30 year career filming one movie. They are signed to do a film, they film it, and then they are out of work until the next movie deal comes along. In essence, they are gainfully unemployed between deals.

As a comparison, it would be like a pilot getting signed to fly a 3 month schedule. At the end of that 3 months the pilot would be unemployed until his/her agent could find him/her another temporary gig.

The guild only works in Hollywood because of the nature of the business with regards to the film industry. In aviation, you compete for a job, you are represented by a union, and you plan on and hope that your current job will carry you to retirement. If it doesn't, you must start out at the bottom at another carrier. That is the way this industry (read: industry, and not unionization) works. Unpleasant for some, but a reality nonetheless.

First, any contract between an union and a carrier MUST be agreed upon by the two parties involved. There is no way that any union is going to be successful in telling an airline how to run the HR department.

Second, if no agreement is reached and a strike is authorized, don't count on much success their either. The government will most likely not allow it to happen. Also, if one were to happen, most airlines would probably opt to file for bankruptcy, shut down, and then start up and start over - this time as a non-union carrier. And don't think there is a shortage of people willing to take a job there either.

Third, airlines with independent pilot unions will not have anything to do with the "guild". The airline certainly will not want to deal with them, and neither will the independent union representing their pilots.

This is a very poor example to use a comparison too. The majority of fire protection districts in the United States is volunteer. With the exception of major cities, most cities consist of either a combination of paid and volunteer, or they are 100% volunteer. Also, many FD's used to provide EMS service as well. The majority of that is now subcontracted to private companies who provide that service.

Doesn't ALPA currently want to take union dues out of it's member's 401k? I thought I saw this on another APC thread.

Moving your 401k when moving from one employer to another is not a big deal to begin with.

Realistically, it cannot be done.

The only bigger joke than this idea is ALPA

There may be no shortage of people trying to get you Mad Dog seat, but the shortage of pilots in general is a very real issue. It has been written on by just about every aviation magazine, and touched on bu USA TOday and the WSJ. Regionals have dipped to hiring people with the ink still wet on their multi-commercials, so your version of supply & demand is incorrect.


Disagree. Do a little research on civil service jobs, and recall rights after layoffs.

When every union is telling them the same thing, and refusing to sign for less, lets it go to arbitration, lets it stall, complies with the RLA, and eventually can WALK.... watch how fast they all change their tune.
It's been done before in different industry with worse restrictions than ours uner the RLA.

True, to a certain point... but if it is EVERY ALPA carrier at the same time, then they will have to become involved in the resolution. Wrong, about people to take the job. As I said, no shortage of people in line for yours, but the regionals are having a hard time getting qualified people.

Fine, they can be left behind when everybody else moves ahead. They will be welcome to join ALPA if they chose.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Maybe in rural suburbia the majority of fire services are volunteers. Go to any metropolitan area and they are full time civil service positions.... especially on the coasts. The majority of them have recall rights. In the event thay are laid off, the first department hiring in their state has to offer the job to the layoff list first.
Happens more with the cops here in New England, since noboady likes to lay off firefighters.



Yes, and not what I was talking about. My point was that when recalled, your new employer does their matching contribution based on your years of ALPA seniority, not as a new hire with no company match.

Realistically.... you are wrong. Practically, you are correct; under our current structure and leadership (or lack thereof)

To an extent I will agree that there is some type of shortage. The shortage, as I see it, is a shortage of qualified individuals willing to go to work for current wages and QOL offered by most carriers, especially the regional carriers.

The proverbial pilot shortage has been written about since I began taking lessons 18 years ago. True, we have seen many regional carriers lower their hiring minimums, but we are in a much different state of the industry than we were in the 1990's. Then, the vast majority of those who flew for a regional/commuter did so as a stepping stone rather than looking at it as a career destination. Now, regional airlines are a career for the majority and a stepping stone for the few. I believe that is what keeps a lot of otherwise qualified individuals from searching for aviation employment and why we see a perceived pilot shortage. Nothing scientific, just my personal observation. :)

I saw this response under a quote with regards to the screen actors guild. I'm not sure how civil service employment and Hollywood SAG employment are related, if that is indeed what you were trying to communicate.

I think the key word is walk. If you are allowed to walk, then you might have some leverage. But, and this again is an observation, I would be prepared for one of two possibilities.

First, because of the financial instability of a lot of carriers, the labor agreement itself could force the company into a bankruptcy situation. The second possibility is that management may allow you to walk and let the company shut down. I wouldn't put it past a lot of airline managers to throw the baby out with the bath water.

The larger cities (i.e., LA, NY, Miami-Dade, etc.) are full time professional. Some of the suburbs (and county) FD's are professional as well. But some large areas, Virginia Beach for example, are a combination of paid and volunteer. It's a sensitive topic with their union - and I can understand why.

Oh it's all PR motivated. Think about it, nobody is happy to see the cops show up. Everyone is happy when the Fire Dept. does. :D

Noted.

Yes, they have been writing about it for a long time... they have been saying it will come in 15-25 years (depending where you read it).... the 15-25 years has arrived.


Two different examples. One of a Guild system that it doesn't matter who employs the Guild member, they get Guild negotiated wages and benefits...
The other of a layoff and recall system that works, keeping trained people employed, before going to new hires.... while preserving their time into the retirement system, years of service (for vacation totals and things of that nature).

True, people are generally happy to see the big red trucks, and unhappy to see the stormtroopers.
That being said, there are a bunch of states where they do maintain layoff lists, and require cities and town to hire from layoff before going to new hires.

Sounds to me like we actually agree more than disagree.... and that it is just slightdifferences in verbage we're arguing over. No big deal.

I do agree, the regionals have become a career destination, while a few do still hit it right and make it to a major. That is why ALPA needs to start running more like a national union, instead of just the loose association of several locals that they have now. It is too easy for for one airline to mess with, and whipsaw, their pilots. It is an entirely different thing, when company X does something dumb, and EVERY single ALPA pilot at all airlines....... s...l...o...w.......d...o...w...n.... in the interest of safety.