National Seniority Protocol
09-03-2008, 01:33 PM
#31
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What I don't like about ALPA is that they're trying to expand their powers (IE this thread) when as far as I can tell they don't seem to be willing to exercise the ones they already have. I mean, if the machinests that build the airplanes don't work one day without a contract (or they strike), why should the pilots that fly the airplanes? A pilot should be worth what a pilot is, not a pilot is worth what a pilot is worth unless you want to keep the bonuses for yourself instead of spreading them out to the workers.
ALPA doesn't have too much power, they're afraid to use the power of the strike that they have. Yeah, you can talk about how the current administration is very unfriendly to unions and strikes, which is true, but major work groups in every other industry have been allowed to strike. How is it that pilots are expected to work two, three, seven, eight years without a current contract when a person who attaches wheels in a GM factory won't work one minute without a new contract? Yeah, GM is doing horribly right now, hemorraging money, but A: how is that different from the airline industry and B: do you really think that GM is going anywhere?
This needs to stop, and while a new administration will help, electing MECs and ALPA executives that aren't incompetent is extremely and equally important.
ALPA doesn't have too much power, they're afraid to use the power of the strike that they have. Yeah, you can talk about how the current administration is very unfriendly to unions and strikes, which is true, but major work groups in every other industry have been allowed to strike. How is it that pilots are expected to work two, three, seven, eight years without a current contract when a person who attaches wheels in a GM factory won't work one minute without a new contract? Yeah, GM is doing horribly right now, hemorraging money, but A: how is that different from the airline industry and B: do you really think that GM is going anywhere?
This needs to stop, and while a new administration will help, electing MECs and ALPA executives that aren't incompetent is extremely and equally important.
09-03-2008, 01:42 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by boilerpilot
What I don't like about ALPA is that they're trying to expand their powers (IE this thread) when as far as I can tell they don't seem to be willing to exercise the ones they already have. I mean, if the machinests that build the airplanes don't work one day without a contract (or they strike), why should the pilots that fly the airplanes? A pilot should be worth what a pilot is, not a pilot is worth what a pilot is worth unless you want to keep the bonuses for yourself instead of spreading them out to the workers.
ALPA doesn't have too much power, they're afraid to use the power of the strike that they have. Yeah, you can talk about how the current administration is very unfriendly to unions and strikes, which is true, but major work groups in every other industry have been allowed to strike. How is it that pilots are expected to work two, three, seven, eight years without a current contract when a person who attaches wheels in a GM factory won't work one minute without a new contract? Yeah, GM is doing horribly right now, hemorraging money, but A: how is that different from the airline industry and B: do you really think that GM is going anywhere?
This needs to stop, and while a new administration will help, electing MECs and ALPA executives that aren't incompetent is extremely and equally important.
ALPA doesn't have too much power, they're afraid to use the power of the strike that they have. Yeah, you can talk about how the current administration is very unfriendly to unions and strikes, which is true, but major work groups in every other industry have been allowed to strike. How is it that pilots are expected to work two, three, seven, eight years without a current contract when a person who attaches wheels in a GM factory won't work one minute without a new contract? Yeah, GM is doing horribly right now, hemorraging money, but A: how is that different from the airline industry and B: do you really think that GM is going anywhere?
This needs to stop, and while a new administration will help, electing MECs and ALPA executives that aren't incompetent is extremely and equally important.
09-03-2008, 02:25 PM
#33
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Boilerup, unfortunately Nevets is right.
I think our difficulty as pilots to strike legally is one of the things that leaves ALPA and the majority of unions struggling to fight an uphill battle.
Strike, or the threat of one, is one of the strongest weapons a union has in it's arsenal, however our line of work does maintain a strict protection against these types of actions.
Everything else aside, creating a National Seniority List would require too much energy and effort while still throwing some under the bus.
Bottom line the list would not be fair and equitable to every pilot.
What is the benchmark we would use to rank and file ourselves? Age? Total Time? Experience? Airline Seniority Compounded by Company Strength?
Too many variables in this equation to make this work, anyway you look at it.
I think our difficulty as pilots to strike legally is one of the things that leaves ALPA and the majority of unions struggling to fight an uphill battle.
Strike, or the threat of one, is one of the strongest weapons a union has in it's arsenal, however our line of work does maintain a strict protection against these types of actions.
Everything else aside, creating a National Seniority List would require too much energy and effort while still throwing some under the bus.
Bottom line the list would not be fair and equitable to every pilot.
What is the benchmark we would use to rank and file ourselves? Age? Total Time? Experience? Airline Seniority Compounded by Company Strength?
Too many variables in this equation to make this work, anyway you look at it.
09-03-2008, 03:20 PM
#34
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Actually, I'm quite familiar with the FOUR words of "National Railway Labor Act".
If you can't argue that negotiating for more time than the actual term of the contract isn't negotiating in good faith and therefore get released to self help, you're a retarded red headed stepchild of a union leader.
If you can't argue that negotiating for more time than the actual term of the contract isn't negotiating in good faith and therefore get released to self help, you're a retarded red headed stepchild of a union leader.
09-03-2008, 08:58 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by DeadHead
Everything else aside, creating a National Seniority List would require too much energy and effort while still throwing some under the bus.
Bottom line the list would not be fair and equitable to every pilot.
What is the benchmark we would use to rank and file ourselves? Age? Total Time? Experience? Airline Seniority Compounded by Company Strength?
Too many variables in this equation to make this work, anyway you look at it.
Bottom line the list would not be fair and equitable to every pilot.
What is the benchmark we would use to rank and file ourselves? Age? Total Time? Experience? Airline Seniority Compounded by Company Strength?
Too many variables in this equation to make this work, anyway you look at it.
Originally Posted by boilerpilot
Actually, I'm quite familiar with the FOUR words of "National Railway Labor Act".
If you can't argue that negotiating for more time than the actual term of the contract isn't negotiating in good faith and therefore get released to self help, you're a retarded red headed stepchild of a union leader.
If you can't argue that negotiating for more time than the actual term of the contract isn't negotiating in good faith and therefore get released to self help, you're a retarded red headed stepchild of a union leader.
09-04-2008, 08:22 PM
#36
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Nevets,
Its been so long since anyone has struck it just seems impossible. I think what boiler is getting at is we are now conditioned to assume helplessness. A strike is not impossible. The situation he describes ought to be a no-brainer. While the NRLB might not be inclined to grant self help, a concentrated effort to obtain it should be expected by the rank and file. Failure to actively pursue release on the part of leadership is a sign of weakness which management will be happy to exploit by dragging talks on and on.
A strike, even an illegal one, or maybe especially an illegal one, would be powerful medicine. And in the court case which would follow, the facts of the situation described (by boiler pilot)are such that a decent lawyer ought to be able to get the strikers off scott-free.
As far as a National Seniority List, how could it not benefit everyone? Today your airline is healthy and poised to grow. Tomorrow, they furlough. Has nothing to do with how well you fly your airplane, only with the luck (or design) of your airline's management team. Should your years of experience be worth nothing!? Certainly not. You are a highly trained, experienced heavy equipment operator. In almost any other field of endeavour, its worth quite a bit.
One of the common complaints about the NSL is that it would force companies to hire expensive experienced pilots over cheap inexperienced ones. Yes. This is the entire point. Fedex would have to hire the furloughed 12 year UAL pilot before picking up a graduate of All-ATPS with a wet Commercial ticket. And in return, when FedEx decides they can be just like DHL and outsource their flying to a cheaper organization, CAL or DAL, or whoever was hiring at the moment would have to pick up the furloughed FedExers.
But maybe this guy just doesn't fit at this company. Provide a method for the company to bypass hiring this guy, but they have to pay him something, 50% maybe, until he gets hired by another company, or declines a bona fide job offer.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you sure don't want the new guy to bump you out of your seat, or domicile, or even just push you down the bid list so you can't hold weekends. Its a real concern and probably a deal killer for a lot of guys at 'younger' airlines which are doing better than the legacies are right now.
So place the 12 year Furloughee on the bottom of the seniority list for bidding, but keep them at their longevity for pay.
fdxmd11fo, would that work for you? That ought to keep guys from jumping from airline to airline chasing the best contract.
As far as all starting at commuter pay. Don't we all do that now? Who doesn't start at first year pay at a regional, work their way up to enough time to get on with a better paying gig, work their way up again, only to have their airline go bust and have to start all over again? Even military guys often start their civilian career at regionals.
Its been so long since anyone has struck it just seems impossible. I think what boiler is getting at is we are now conditioned to assume helplessness. A strike is not impossible. The situation he describes ought to be a no-brainer. While the NRLB might not be inclined to grant self help, a concentrated effort to obtain it should be expected by the rank and file. Failure to actively pursue release on the part of leadership is a sign of weakness which management will be happy to exploit by dragging talks on and on.
A strike, even an illegal one, or maybe especially an illegal one, would be powerful medicine. And in the court case which would follow, the facts of the situation described (by boiler pilot)are such that a decent lawyer ought to be able to get the strikers off scott-free.
As far as a National Seniority List, how could it not benefit everyone? Today your airline is healthy and poised to grow. Tomorrow, they furlough. Has nothing to do with how well you fly your airplane, only with the luck (or design) of your airline's management team. Should your years of experience be worth nothing!? Certainly not. You are a highly trained, experienced heavy equipment operator. In almost any other field of endeavour, its worth quite a bit.
One of the common complaints about the NSL is that it would force companies to hire expensive experienced pilots over cheap inexperienced ones. Yes. This is the entire point. Fedex would have to hire the furloughed 12 year UAL pilot before picking up a graduate of All-ATPS with a wet Commercial ticket. And in return, when FedEx decides they can be just like DHL and outsource their flying to a cheaper organization, CAL or DAL, or whoever was hiring at the moment would have to pick up the furloughed FedExers.
But maybe this guy just doesn't fit at this company. Provide a method for the company to bypass hiring this guy, but they have to pay him something, 50% maybe, until he gets hired by another company, or declines a bona fide job offer.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you sure don't want the new guy to bump you out of your seat, or domicile, or even just push you down the bid list so you can't hold weekends. Its a real concern and probably a deal killer for a lot of guys at 'younger' airlines which are doing better than the legacies are right now.
So place the 12 year Furloughee on the bottom of the seniority list for bidding, but keep them at their longevity for pay.
fdxmd11fo, would that work for you? That ought to keep guys from jumping from airline to airline chasing the best contract.
As far as all starting at commuter pay. Don't we all do that now? Who doesn't start at first year pay at a regional, work their way up to enough time to get on with a better paying gig, work their way up again, only to have their airline go bust and have to start all over again? Even military guys often start their civilian career at regionals.
09-05-2008, 02:07 AM
#37
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Are we really going to try to invoke some sort of socialist policy in the airline industry? No company has to hire you ever. It doesn't matter if you have 40 years of experience and are willing to work for less than half their normal pay scale. The stuff you guys propose would bankrupt our industry in a second! If you want job security and guarantees, you need to move to a different country.
Do you not see what is happening to all of the heavily unionized industries around? You can fight for the best contract ever like those guys 'lucky' enough to work for the autoworkers' unions. Those guys have contracted their industry out of the country because they cannot afford to make a car in this country at a competitive rate.
There are so many pilots willing to go nearly $100,000 in debt to get a job that only guarantees around $20,000/year. Until idiots stop doing that, there is no shortage of cheap labor in our industry. Supply and demand alone show why companies do not have to pay more and give better hours. Until pilots stop showing up to work every day with nobody behind them ready to scoop up their jobs, there is no chance this industry is going to become a place you can work 7 days per month and make $200,000.
Good luck, but I hate to see so many people that do not understand market economics. I guess when this industry was made up of college-educated professionals, it was different. Now, it seems that everybody finishes high school, gets a big loan, and starts the uphill drudge working at below poverty wages. You don't start out there and then all of a sudden walk through a magic door and get treated like a professional. You've already proven that you'll do this job for nothing, why would I pay you more if I was the owner of an airline? I haven't seen too many airlines lacking 'qualified' applicants. Supply and demand is not on our side.
Do you not see what is happening to all of the heavily unionized industries around? You can fight for the best contract ever like those guys 'lucky' enough to work for the autoworkers' unions. Those guys have contracted their industry out of the country because they cannot afford to make a car in this country at a competitive rate.
There are so many pilots willing to go nearly $100,000 in debt to get a job that only guarantees around $20,000/year. Until idiots stop doing that, there is no shortage of cheap labor in our industry. Supply and demand alone show why companies do not have to pay more and give better hours. Until pilots stop showing up to work every day with nobody behind them ready to scoop up their jobs, there is no chance this industry is going to become a place you can work 7 days per month and make $200,000.
Good luck, but I hate to see so many people that do not understand market economics. I guess when this industry was made up of college-educated professionals, it was different. Now, it seems that everybody finishes high school, gets a big loan, and starts the uphill drudge working at below poverty wages. You don't start out there and then all of a sudden walk through a magic door and get treated like a professional. You've already proven that you'll do this job for nothing, why would I pay you more if I was the owner of an airline? I haven't seen too many airlines lacking 'qualified' applicants. Supply and demand is not on our side.
09-05-2008, 09:46 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by milky
Are we really going to try to invoke some sort of socialist policy in the airline industry? No company has to hire you ever. It doesn't matter if you have 40 years of experience and are willing to work for less than half their normal pay scale. The stuff you guys propose would bankrupt our industry in a second! If you want job security and guarantees, you need to move to a different country.
Do you not see what is happening to all of the heavily unionized industries around? You can fight for the best contract ever like those guys 'lucky' enough to work for the autoworkers' unions. Those guys have contracted their industry out of the country because they cannot afford to make a car in this country at a competitive rate.
There are so many pilots willing to go nearly $100,000 in debt to get a job that only guarantees around $20,000/year. Until idiots stop doing that, there is no shortage of cheap labor in our industry. Supply and demand alone show why companies do not have to pay more and give better hours. Until pilots stop showing up to work every day with nobody behind them ready to scoop up their jobs, there is no chance this industry is going to become a place you can work 7 days per month and make $200,000.
Good luck, but I hate to see so many people that do not understand market economics. I guess when this industry was made up of college-educated professionals, it was different. Now, it seems that everybody finishes high school, gets a big loan, and starts the uphill drudge working at below poverty wages. You don't start out there and then all of a sudden walk through a magic door and get treated like a professional. You've already proven that you'll do this job for nothing, why would I pay you more if I was the owner of an airline? I haven't seen too many airlines lacking 'qualified' applicants. Supply and demand is not on our side.
Do you not see what is happening to all of the heavily unionized industries around? You can fight for the best contract ever like those guys 'lucky' enough to work for the autoworkers' unions. Those guys have contracted their industry out of the country because they cannot afford to make a car in this country at a competitive rate.
There are so many pilots willing to go nearly $100,000 in debt to get a job that only guarantees around $20,000/year. Until idiots stop doing that, there is no shortage of cheap labor in our industry. Supply and demand alone show why companies do not have to pay more and give better hours. Until pilots stop showing up to work every day with nobody behind them ready to scoop up their jobs, there is no chance this industry is going to become a place you can work 7 days per month and make $200,000.
Good luck, but I hate to see so many people that do not understand market economics. I guess when this industry was made up of college-educated professionals, it was different. Now, it seems that everybody finishes high school, gets a big loan, and starts the uphill drudge working at below poverty wages. You don't start out there and then all of a sudden walk through a magic door and get treated like a professional. You've already proven that you'll do this job for nothing, why would I pay you more if I was the owner of an airline? I haven't seen too many airlines lacking 'qualified' applicants. Supply and demand is not on our side.
09-05-2008, 06:20 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by Nevets
The problem is that this profession isn't the free market as you suggest it is. The fundamental problem is that this is probably one of the only professions where prior experience doesn't matter when it comes to compensation. If you are unfortunate enough to be employed by an airline that goes BK, furloughs, etc, you cannot just market yourself to another airline with your experience and be offered a job with commensurate pay according to that experience. You are just recycled to first year pay and that is exactly how management wants it. Any other job, you can demand a salary commensurate with your experience.
Some would argue that there is a difference between a new pilot and an experienced one, a military guy with 2000 hours and a civilian with 2000 hours, a 737 captain and a 727 FE, etc. But, the way the unions have 'protected' their unions, they have made it where the company has basically no say over their pilots except the initial hiring. So, they will likely take the most experienced guys they can get for the lowest salary they will accept.
Right now, the market is against us it seems. There are more than enough guys willing to work for salaries that nobody seems to like. Until that ends, it will not change. A national seniority list is a horrible idea except for one thing. If unions put together some sort of national list, finally enough people would leave the unions to actually affect some change in the industry.
09-06-2008, 09:15 AM
#40
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Originally Posted by milky
You are incorrect. Unionization of the industry has caused there to be no regard for 'experience.' Each union has 'protected' itself from outsiders so well that if you want to join a new company, you have to start at the bottom. I've seen the threads about companies that have the audacity to try to hire captains off the street (though very few are allowed to due to unions). This is the whole that the industry has dug for itself. Now that getting on with a major is no longer when you can drop your pack and just ride the train to retirement.
Some would argue that there is a difference between a new pilot and an experienced one, a military guy with 2000 hours and a civilian with 2000 hours, a 737 captain and a 727 FE, etc. But, the way the unions have 'protected' their unions, they have made it where the company has basically no say over their pilots except the initial hiring. So, they will likely take the most experienced guys they can get for the lowest salary they will accept.
Right now, the market is against us it seems. There are more than enough guys willing to work for salaries that nobody seems to like. Until that ends, it will not change. A national seniority list is a horrible idea except for one thing. If unions put together some sort of national list, finally enough people would leave the unions to actually affect some change in the industry.
Some would argue that there is a difference between a new pilot and an experienced one, a military guy with 2000 hours and a civilian with 2000 hours, a 737 captain and a 727 FE, etc. But, the way the unions have 'protected' their unions, they have made it where the company has basically no say over their pilots except the initial hiring. So, they will likely take the most experienced guys they can get for the lowest salary they will accept.
Right now, the market is against us it seems. There are more than enough guys willing to work for salaries that nobody seems to like. Until that ends, it will not change. A national seniority list is a horrible idea except for one thing. If unions put together some sort of national list, finally enough people would leave the unions to actually affect some change in the industry.
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