Alpa = Useless
 

Alpa sold out the Spirit Pilots period....No stock options...loss of time and half for overtime...90 hour schedules...NO PAY PARITY...no retro for 4 years of no raises...

I will donating my 2 percent to charity....

Right On!
 

I could have told you that! Anyone who thinks ALPA is a 'union' isn't looking at it hard enough---it is a BIG business, about profits and exploitation, nothing more.

Yeah, but the kids love them!

At least I got to hang out with my friends in the 90+ heat for a pay-free week. I'll never see Federal and Griffin the same way again **GOOD TIMES**! There were actually two winners with this strike, Spirit Airlines and Dockers. Boy are they going to miss our cash.

Oh yeah, I got an ALPA tie, and was promised the all impressive "battle star" pin. I don't care much for the name, its a little melodramatic, but for the analogy's sake, this one is more of the ALPA purple heart, than battle star.

You wont see me wearing it. Who wants to commemorate a huge failure? Maybe they will start awarding 709 ride pins too. Those should be easy to pass now that they negotiated more sim time for such things.

Oh well, we'll get'em next decade. CONTRACT 2019 Wa-Hoo!

ALPA is a association. Spirit is the union. Your negotiating committee and your MEC made the choices to accept or reject the contract. Your pilot group will also vote to reject or accept the contract. Vote as you see fit. ALPA wont vote for you.

True, but when the ALPA attorney answers a question on a conference call pertaining to what happens if the TA is not ratified, by saying 'I don't really know', that is fear mongering. How could two of ALPA's best not know what happens if a TA is voted down during self-help? I'm not a big history buff, but I'm sure that we are not the first pilot group in this situation.

They said it is a gray area? Uncharted waters?

How about the MEC makes a contingency plan with the company via LOA in case the TA fails? Something like both sides agree, in the case the TA fails ratification, to continue the status quo until (insert date here). Just long enough to do a little negotiating. In effect, reset the clock to a week before the original strike deadline.

Why not do this? Because the MEC wants to use the pressure of uncertainty to scare its own members into a yes vote. Shame on you MEC. I'm sure the company would jump at the chance to lock in a contingency plan. If the company says no to an LOA, then you still have your answer, immediate strike. At least you could make your decision without the specter of 'what if?'

WHAT IF your personal attorney, in his area of expertise answered you with "Gee, I don't know"?

The only certainty is that ALPA will do everything to protect itself....smaller pilot groups be damned.

amen brotha!!

I've been saying this for a long time. APLA SUCKS! They are one reason why I have no desire to go 121.

I am not against unions. I am against poor unions. ALPA has done nothing but get pushed around by airline management for the last 10-15 years. You guy's would be better of ditching ALPA and starting a new union! Onw with some balls!

This may be worth of it's own thread... but if the ALPA leadership is so hated, why aren't they replaced?

My opinion, but I view ALPA as being threatened that lower paying upstarts will be created to pawn flying off of its member carriers. And that's fewer dues that ALPA would collect...

If the non-ALPA represented carrier is at all successful, it only illustrates that there are alternatives to being ALPA represented. They don't want that; not at all.

It's a money pump, plain and simple.

First step: Look in the mirror.
 

Your LEC, MEC and NC are made up of Spirit pilots. It doesn't matter if you are members of ALPA, Teamsters or your own in-house union, that fact does not change. In fact, more than likely, the people who are in those positions would be the same irregardless of your affiliation. The strength of a particular airline's pilot union comes from communication and pilot unity. Not necessarily by the emblem on the tie-tack.
If you are unhappy with the TA and feel that it does not meet your expectations, then blame your NC for not meeting the requirements set down by the MEC. You can blame the MEC for not listening to the will of the pilots. Or you can blame yourself and your fellow pilots for not being clear in your requirements when you presented your resolutions at your LEC meeting or when you spoke to your reps on the phone. You could also blame the attorneys that your pilot group hired to represent you. But I believe it is a stretch to blame the national apparatus that provides ancillary support to your pilots' union.
The alternative would be to have no union representation at all. In that case, you can let the company dictate the terms of your employment.
If you are unhappy with the TA, then vote "no". And then, if you are unhappy with your representation, recall them.

Hog.

And no, I'm not an ALPA cheerleader or apologist. In fact, if you want to lead the charge against Prater, then I will be right there with you. That's not an indictment of ALPA; just the "mistake" who represents our interests with congress, the industry and the public.

So give us some examples where its better without ALPA? I've done without ALPA, I've done with an in-house and overall...still much better with ALPA.

It's Unions period now a days, there businesses and they do whatever it takes to protect their pockets over your well being. It is that simple.

I didn't say I am anti union, but what has ALPA done lately that is actually worthwhile? And I mean really worthwhile. See post above this one. They are no longer there for the pilots, they are there because they are a buisness. ALPA needs leadership with a backbone, and it will be a worthwhile union again.

Because the ALPA leadership isn't really hated by most pilots. It's just a few blowhards on the internet. When the ratification vote comes in tomorrow at Spirit with a wide margin, you'll see that what goes on on internet pilot forums has little to do with reality.

TAs ratified by wide margins at Hawaiian, Alaska, Jazz, and Capital Cargo in just the past year and a half. ALPA lobbying has led to a deal in Congress to raise pilot hiring requirements to 1500 hours, eliminating 200 hour pilots at the regionals. ALPA lobbying has also led to the flight time/duty time change proposal that will probably be issued soon by the FAA. Numerous smaller legislative and regulatory victories have also been achieved over the past year or so.

Now you need to be honest here and not say things that you knw are not true. ALPA sided with ERAU and their lobbyists to have a LOWER hours requirement. It was only when every other non ALPA pilot labor union; APA, SWAPA, USAPA, CAPA and others had lined up and demanded the 1500 hour minimum that ALPA finally signed onboard.

ALPA is also lobbying Congress it INCREASE flight time/duty time limits.

Now before you fire off an angry reply and complain about how ALPA is getting smeared by malcontents, remember a couple of things:

1. A wise man once said; "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. No one is entitled to their own set of facts."

2. You can pontificate all you want, you won't be able to argue away the documents that prove the facts.

3. We'll all understand and be empathetic when you wake up one morning and realize that your usefulness to them is over.

Not true. ALPA supported the 1500 hour requirement from the beginning.

A bald faced lie. ALPA's proposal includes duty time limits that go as low as 9.5 hours per duty period during periods of circadian low. Flight time limits also drop during times of the day when it's needed for safety. The only number that increases is an allowance for 9 hours of flight time, but only during the period of the day with peak circadian alertness.

You would do well to learn from that quote.

Add to the list a TA at Spirit ratified by a 3 to 1 margin after an incredibly successful strike.

I wouldn't say ALPA is useless. It's just that they're the ones that are the most convenient to blame for our shortcomings. There are so many things stacked against pilot labor that ALPA can't possibly deal with all of them. My company has been in negotiations for too long, all the while ALPA and the support on the other side of the table sees that management are not negotiating in good faith yet nothing is being done. Can ALPA be blamed for that? Who knows. People say don't rely on national, it's up to the locals to make decisions and the locals keeps saying national is helping us. :o I would have to say though that when people are bad mouthing ALPA they're actually trying to badmouth their own union, not national. Am I correct?

Yes and no. Yes, in that ALPA members choose their own local leadership, and so in effect, their own destiny. No, in that we as members rely upon ALPA to provide guidance in securing fair contracts and working conditions, leadership in making our union strong enough to be able to negotiate such contracts, and support in making sure the contract is strictly adhered to.

I have no way of knowing whether the Spirit contract is a fair one. But the ALPA counsel who led Spirit's pilots in negotiating it served in the same capacity for Astar Air Cargo. IMHO, Astar pilots were very poorly served by their staff counsel. It is true that they ratified their contract by approx 90%. But in doing so, they gave up what was, in essence, indefinite furlough protection, and traded it for 2 years of furlough protection. As a result, approx. 80% of their pilots have either lost their jobs permanently, or are on long-term disability. Two-thirds of those remaining on the property have taken downgrades of either 1 or 2 seats, and virtually all are expecting to be displaced in the near future. The real irony is, they voted themselves out of their jobs.

Not one that I have spoken to fully understood the ramifications of that one change to the contract, or that it was likely to be invoked so soon after ratification. Everybody's eyes were focused on the hourly rate and signing bonus, not one on what he or she would do after they were terminated. So in that regard, ALPA was indeed, "useless"

This is not meant to sound like an indictment of our contract administrator's legal skills or devotion to the cause of labor. But I did get the impression that in overseeing 2 completely different airlines and 2 contracts, he was stretched to the limit. I also had reservations about his ability to properly counsel and influence a union during a time when it's sovereignty is under attack. The Astar MEC was "zigging" when they should have been "zagging" and he did nothing to bring them back into focus. So in that regard as well, ALPA was again "useless"

Just my $.02...