TWA Pilots vs. ALPA in DFR suit
07-16-2011, 04:08 PM
#151
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Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by globalexpress
I'm a disinterested outsider as I discuss this stuff, keep in mind, although I do find the case interesting from a personal point of view.
I have read all the court documents that have been publicly available, including the Seham report. I am also currently trying to get the transcript from the District Court of NJ to read what was actually said, but I'm not sure how to do that yet or even if it is available. If I can get a PDF, I'll post it.
Anyway, you have to keep in mind that Seham's is "one side" of the argument, albeit the winning one. The other court filing had ALPA's point of view, and they seemed to have some interesting points as well but yes, they lost.
There's a reason why I don't think the TWA pilots would have received much of a "better" seniority list integration (and therefore damages may be limited). It is my understanding that through the APA's union pilot contract with American Airlines they could put the kabosh on the whole TWA deal if TWA ALPA didn't drop their contractual protections concerning merger/integration.
So let's say, again, the TWA ALPA pilots received "perfect" representation and they refused to back down on anything less than an excellent deal for the TWA pilots. The TWA pilots would therefore not have dropped their Labor Protective Provisions (LPP). So then what does the APA do? Well, the logical thing is that they would have said sorry, the deal's dead. The TWA's LPP and APA's contractual protections appear to be mutually exclusive. APA is obviously not going to integrate 2500 pilots from a bankrupt airline into their list. APA's seniority list contract provisions trump TWA ALPA's, the deal would have been dead, and perhaps 2500 TWA ALPA pilots lose everything in the resultant bankruptcy and possible liquidation/fragmentation.
Or what if TWA ALPA said no way, we're not dropping our LPPs of our contract, we're not getting a good enough seniority deal, so TWA goes into bankruptcy. If you're the Board of TWA, and American is offering you the only viable offer, and the only thing stopping it is a pilot union's LPP, what's the first thing you do in bankruptcy? You go to the bankruptcy judge and void that section of the pilot contract immediately. Now you have 2500 pilots with no LPP and no deal with the APA at all to consider any seniority list integration. By willingly dropping the LPP under the advice of ALPA lawyers I assume, TWA ALPA at least had some sort of deal with the APA to consider integration, and ultimately some TWA pilots were integrated.
As a side note, if TWA had liquidated or fragmented or whatever and ALL the TWA pilots lost the opportunity the APA gave them by dropping the LPPs of their contract, do you sue ALPA for not pursuing that avenue when they had the chance? I wonder if ALPA gets sued either way!
Regardless, that's why I wonder what kind of damages the pilots can really expect. ALPA was found to have messed up, so they should definitely get something. But can a couple of thousand of pilots from a thrice bankrupt airline expect to be compensated for a decade of "lost" earnings that likely would have been "lost" anyway? We shall see I guess.
I have read all the court documents that have been publicly available, including the Seham report. I am also currently trying to get the transcript from the District Court of NJ to read what was actually said, but I'm not sure how to do that yet or even if it is available. If I can get a PDF, I'll post it.
Anyway, you have to keep in mind that Seham's is "one side" of the argument, albeit the winning one. The other court filing had ALPA's point of view, and they seemed to have some interesting points as well but yes, they lost.
There's a reason why I don't think the TWA pilots would have received much of a "better" seniority list integration (and therefore damages may be limited). It is my understanding that through the APA's union pilot contract with American Airlines they could put the kabosh on the whole TWA deal if TWA ALPA didn't drop their contractual protections concerning merger/integration.
So let's say, again, the TWA ALPA pilots received "perfect" representation and they refused to back down on anything less than an excellent deal for the TWA pilots. The TWA pilots would therefore not have dropped their Labor Protective Provisions (LPP). So then what does the APA do? Well, the logical thing is that they would have said sorry, the deal's dead. The TWA's LPP and APA's contractual protections appear to be mutually exclusive. APA is obviously not going to integrate 2500 pilots from a bankrupt airline into their list. APA's seniority list contract provisions trump TWA ALPA's, the deal would have been dead, and perhaps 2500 TWA ALPA pilots lose everything in the resultant bankruptcy and possible liquidation/fragmentation.
Or what if TWA ALPA said no way, we're not dropping our LPPs of our contract, we're not getting a good enough seniority deal, so TWA goes into bankruptcy. If you're the Board of TWA, and American is offering you the only viable offer, and the only thing stopping it is a pilot union's LPP, what's the first thing you do in bankruptcy? You go to the bankruptcy judge and void that section of the pilot contract immediately. Now you have 2500 pilots with no LPP and no deal with the APA at all to consider any seniority list integration. By willingly dropping the LPP under the advice of ALPA lawyers I assume, TWA ALPA at least had some sort of deal with the APA to consider integration, and ultimately some TWA pilots were integrated.
As a side note, if TWA had liquidated or fragmented or whatever and ALL the TWA pilots lost the opportunity the APA gave them by dropping the LPPs of their contract, do you sue ALPA for not pursuing that avenue when they had the chance? I wonder if ALPA gets sued either way!
Regardless, that's why I wonder what kind of damages the pilots can really expect. ALPA was found to have messed up, so they should definitely get something. But can a couple of thousand of pilots from a thrice bankrupt airline expect to be compensated for a decade of "lost" earnings that likely would have been "lost" anyway? We shall see I guess.
Instead of properly representing the pilots, ALPA was more interested in a long term relationship with APA that would hopefully result in the APA rejoining ALPA at a later date. Because the hoped for future rejoining of APA to ALPA would have resulted in the dues revenue of over 10,000 pilots; ALPA was more than willing to disenfranchise the TWA pilot group in hopes of a larger gain down the road.
Even more troubling is the fact that during discovery and depositions, it was determined that ALPA destroyed key computers, laptops, hard drives, servers and all data that was related to the case. It's not that ALPA destroyed them...they only destroyed the ones of the people involved in the TWA/APA discussions. Thousands of emails were "lost." People testified under oath that discussions and emails never happened.
And then one computer was found that was not destroyed. And the evidence was there.
That's why they were found guilty of a failure to provide DFR. They tried to cover it up and they failed.
07-16-2011, 05:20 PM
#152
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Sounds like deliberate destruction of evidence as part of a conspiracy to deceive a civil court proceeding ?
If so, why aren't these people in jail ?
Again, why ANY respectable pilot group would continue to remain affiliated with a group that could possibly be capable of such corruption, is beyond my comprehension.
If so, why aren't these people in jail ?
Again, why ANY respectable pilot group would continue to remain affiliated with a group that could possibly be capable of such corruption, is beyond my comprehension.
Last edited by eaglefly; 07-16-2011 at 05:43 PM.
07-16-2011, 07:51 PM
#154
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by eaglefly
Sounds like deliberate destruction of evidence as part of a conspiracy to deceive a civil court proceeding ?
If so, why aren't these people in jail ?
Again, why ANY respectable pilot group would continue to remain affiliated with a group that could possibly be capable of such corruption, is beyond my comprehension.
If so, why aren't these people in jail ?
Again, why ANY respectable pilot group would continue to remain affiliated with a group that could possibly be capable of such corruption, is beyond my comprehension.
The ALPA employees who destroyed those files and hardware should probably look for a criminal defense attorney. There may well be perjury concerns for those who claimed under oath that none of these "alleged" items ever existed. When in reality, they had not all been destroyed.
Carl
07-17-2011, 07:25 AM
#155
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 474
Originally Posted by All Nighter
I hear this crap all the time...that TWA was in bankruptcy and would have been out of business. That's pure BS.
The final bankruptcy of TWA was CONTRIVED by TWA CEO Bill Compton and AA CEO Don Carty for over a year before it became public. Compton had talks with Carty about buying TWA long before anyone knew about it. But AA didn't want Carl Icahn involved in any way and Icahn had 2 years remaining in his very lucrative Karabu Agreement. TWA went into the winter of 1999 with more money in the bank than they'd ever had in decades. TWA was making money and winning J.D. Powers customer service awards left and right. That's the VERY reason AA agreed to the purchase, because TWA just would not die as quickly as AA had hoped and it appeared TWA was on the path to resurgence. Carty told Compton the only way to eliminate Icahn was through bankruptcy court...the problem at the time was that TWA had too much money in the bank and would have been laughed out of the courthouse. Compton undertook to pay forward on lease payments, gate leases, landing fees, fuel bills, etc. to eliminate the excess cash so as to make bankruptcy, and the subsequent AA purchase, viable to the court. Carty agreed that AMR would step in as the "white knight" and purchase TWA's assets.
Once in BK court, Carl Icahn bid for the assets and was dismissed by the court. Unfortunately for AMR, Jay Alex and Boeing also put up a viable bid to keep TWA together. Carty went into the hallway and discussed with his team. When he came back in he asked the judge "what would make the difference here"?. Judge Kimba Woods told him that her concern was for the employees of TWA. Carty then increased AMR's bid for the assets to match the Boeing offer AND agreed to take ALL TWA employees covered under a contract. Jay Alex and Boeing admitted their plan was to "necessarily downsize the company but Boeing would provide an entirely new fleet. Carty promised the judge that AMR would use their very best efforts to ensure a "fair and equitable integration" (that never happened).
Carty won the bidding war and the rest is history....but to say TWA was bankrupt and would not have survived is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts. I've also heard people say TWA would never have survived 9/11...that's also a crock. At the time, AWA was essentially in the very same financial position as TWA. In fact, merger talks between TWA and AWA had been explored for some time prior. Post 9/11 AWA received government bailout money that kept them alive through that period and still survives today. What makes you think TWA wouldn't have received government money and survived as well?
Bottom line - The TWA pilots DID tell AA/APA that they would not give up scope. The ALPA national attorneys physically SCREAMED at the MEC and DEMANDED that they give up scope. AMR threatened an 1113 filing and ALPA national told the TWA MEC they would not defend them in that proceeding. Essentially, the TWA pilots were RAILROADED by ALPA national into giving up the only protections they had and were left to twist in the wind.
Thus the jury has spoken.
The final bankruptcy of TWA was CONTRIVED by TWA CEO Bill Compton and AA CEO Don Carty for over a year before it became public. Compton had talks with Carty about buying TWA long before anyone knew about it. But AA didn't want Carl Icahn involved in any way and Icahn had 2 years remaining in his very lucrative Karabu Agreement. TWA went into the winter of 1999 with more money in the bank than they'd ever had in decades. TWA was making money and winning J.D. Powers customer service awards left and right. That's the VERY reason AA agreed to the purchase, because TWA just would not die as quickly as AA had hoped and it appeared TWA was on the path to resurgence. Carty told Compton the only way to eliminate Icahn was through bankruptcy court...the problem at the time was that TWA had too much money in the bank and would have been laughed out of the courthouse. Compton undertook to pay forward on lease payments, gate leases, landing fees, fuel bills, etc. to eliminate the excess cash so as to make bankruptcy, and the subsequent AA purchase, viable to the court. Carty agreed that AMR would step in as the "white knight" and purchase TWA's assets.
Once in BK court, Carl Icahn bid for the assets and was dismissed by the court. Unfortunately for AMR, Jay Alex and Boeing also put up a viable bid to keep TWA together. Carty went into the hallway and discussed with his team. When he came back in he asked the judge "what would make the difference here"?. Judge Kimba Woods told him that her concern was for the employees of TWA. Carty then increased AMR's bid for the assets to match the Boeing offer AND agreed to take ALL TWA employees covered under a contract. Jay Alex and Boeing admitted their plan was to "necessarily downsize the company but Boeing would provide an entirely new fleet. Carty promised the judge that AMR would use their very best efforts to ensure a "fair and equitable integration" (that never happened).
Carty won the bidding war and the rest is history....but to say TWA was bankrupt and would not have survived is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts. I've also heard people say TWA would never have survived 9/11...that's also a crock. At the time, AWA was essentially in the very same financial position as TWA. In fact, merger talks between TWA and AWA had been explored for some time prior. Post 9/11 AWA received government bailout money that kept them alive through that period and still survives today. What makes you think TWA wouldn't have received government money and survived as well?
Bottom line - The TWA pilots DID tell AA/APA that they would not give up scope. The ALPA national attorneys physically SCREAMED at the MEC and DEMANDED that they give up scope. AMR threatened an 1113 filing and ALPA national told the TWA MEC they would not defend them in that proceeding. Essentially, the TWA pilots were RAILROADED by ALPA national into giving up the only protections they had and were left to twist in the wind.
Thus the jury has spoken.
07-17-2011, 07:49 AM
#156
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 474
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
Where your comments fail to pass muster is this. The issue is not the financial status of TWA. The failure was in ALPA's failure to properly and fairly represent their members. That is a legal duty they had as the recognized bargaining agent.
If All Nighter is correct in his implication that TWA really didn't really have financial problems and likely would have survived with its employees (and their career expectations) in tact except for the fact that ALPA told them otherwise, then I guess the TWA guys could expect more $$ up to ALPA's ability to pay.
Another question which might become quite interesting is this: if the TWA pilots get a large lump sum, how is it divided up? Not too long ago, the United Airlines pilots received a large lump sum from their company when their pension was terminated. The pilots hired actuaries, outside advisors, and used ALPA advisors to come up with methods to divide the money. Their MECs voted on a method which was thought to be fair, but then a portion of the pilot group sued and ultimately won a settlement.
Hopefully the TWA pilots will be able to come up with a method that doesn't involve a similar situation. Does the #1 guy at TWA who was integrated get as much as a guy at the bottom of the list but lost his job, for example? Does that #1 guy get anything? If one group of TWA pilots is determined to "deserve" more than another group, does the group that got less sue? If everything gets split evenly, does a group that feels they should have gotten more sue? Hopefully they're talking about those issues right now or have already lest they have the divisions that the United pilots had. It's easy to find a law firm that will work on contingency, especially when large sums of money at are stake.
07-18-2011, 01:09 PM
#157
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Yes, it's possible they could turn on each other, NEW lawsuits start flying and the money is held in escrow until the suit(s) are settled or there is an agreement, which could be years.
Never a dull moment when it comes to airline pilots and their tanbark fights.
Never a dull moment when it comes to airline pilots and their tanbark fights.
07-18-2011, 01:55 PM
#158
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 747 Cap
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by eaglefly
Yes, it's possible they could turn on each other, NEW lawsuits start flying and the money is held in escrow until the suit(s) are settled or there is an agreement, which could be years.
Never a dull moment when it comes to airline pilots and their tanbark fights.
Never a dull moment when it comes to airline pilots and their tanbark fights.
07-18-2011, 03:17 PM
#159
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Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 335
Originally Posted by Karnak
No need. All I need is a jury who will see things my way. History, facts, circumstances don't matter if you can sway most of a jury.
Emails, courtships to Vegas of AA members to pursuade to ALPA, casting ballots that were produced to vote in ALPA. This is just to name a few. Read the document of evidence to show the FACTS. Don't take my word for it. So let me ask you this? You're on my jury: Do you see this HARD EVIDENCE? It's not circumstantial -- NONE OF IT. They f-ed up and now they need to pay! PERIOD. So shut your pie hole when you don't have the facts. Let me guess, you're an ALPA blowhard that's kissing his way up the political ladder. Probably someone who wasn't even out of diapers when all of this was going on.
Honest officer, I didn't shoot that man with this gun I have in my hand. HONEST! Give me a break.
07-18-2011, 04:57 PM
#160
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Polarfr8dog
You sir, are talking without knowing the facts . . . I've read too much to keep my trap shut so here you go:
Emails, courtships to Vegas of AA members to pursuade to ALPA, casting ballots that were produced to vote in ALPA. This is just to name a few. Read the document of evidence to show the FACTS. Don't take my word for it. So let me ask you this? You're on my jury: Do you see this HARD EVIDENCE? It's not circumstantial -- NONE OF IT. They f-ed up and now they need to pay! PERIOD. So shut your pie hole when you don't have the facts. Let me guess, you're an ALPA blowhard that's kissing his way up the political ladder. Probably someone who wasn't even out of diapers when all of this was going on.
Honest officer, I didn't shoot that man with this gun I have in my hand. HONEST! Give me a break.
Emails, courtships to Vegas of AA members to pursuade to ALPA, casting ballots that were produced to vote in ALPA. This is just to name a few. Read the document of evidence to show the FACTS. Don't take my word for it. So let me ask you this? You're on my jury: Do you see this HARD EVIDENCE? It's not circumstantial -- NONE OF IT. They f-ed up and now they need to pay! PERIOD. So shut your pie hole when you don't have the facts. Let me guess, you're an ALPA blowhard that's kissing his way up the political ladder. Probably someone who wasn't even out of diapers when all of this was going on.
Honest officer, I didn't shoot that man with this gun I have in my hand. HONEST! Give me a break.
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