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-   -   Nationwide Pilot Union? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/union-talk/61744-nationwide-pilot-union.html)

elssaw 08-31-2011 11:32 AM

Nationwide Pilot Union?
 
Would anyone else on here be in favor of a Nationwide Pilot's Union and therefore a Nationwide Seniority List??? Okay, so if you're at Delta, Southwest, Fedex, UPS, etc. or you have lot's of seniority where-ever then probably not. But hear me out . . .

Imagine a master seniority list. For most of us our airline will get sold, merge, or otherwise fail and we'll find yourself out on the street. With a master seniority list perhaps we don't have to start back at the bottom. It might also discourage the growing trend where management subcontracts out work from the majors to the regionals, and then from one regional to a lower cost regional.

So how would something like this work? The devil is figuring out where everyone would start out on the seniority list. For guys who just got hired somewhere this isn't really a big deal. For guys who have 30 years in someplace, this is a huge deal. Perhaps a plan which would factor in each pilot's years of service and then use age as a tie breaker. Also, there would have to be some crazy formula to prevent a senior guy from getting furloughed at a one airline and then going right tot he top of somebody else's seniority list.

The goal of this whole thing is to help stabilize this career and stop management from exploiting the pilots. Remember Eastern, TWA, PanAM, etc. At one point those airlines were the best of the best and everybody wanted to work there. If you had 20-30 years in and were getting ready to retire when they went under . . . well you get the idea. Or how about the guys who have 10 years in and a family to support? How about this Midwest guys when they got bought? Anyone know where the Frontier thing is going? How many of us UAL guys are still on furlough?

If you've got seniority at a great airline there is very little incentive for you to join a Nationwide Union with a Master Seniority List. However, what would there be to lose? You sign up, and as long as your airline and union are strong the Master List doesn't really come into play.

Sure we might lose a bit of seniority from time to time but at least we wouldn't lose it all!

TonyWilliams 09-01-2011 12:10 PM

Never going to happen. Welcome to the airline biz.

Laxrox43 09-01-2011 12:30 PM

I would love to see a list of mandatory minimum wages, based on type/size of aircraft. Australia and other countries that aren't deregulated have this...

TonyWilliams 09-01-2011 08:16 PM


Originally Posted by Laxrox43 (Post 1047780)
I would love to see a list of mandatory minimum wages, based on type/size of aircraft. Australia and other countries that aren't deregulated have this...

And how many airlines are in any of these countries... anywhere in the world? Then, how many do we have?

Laxrox43 09-01-2011 08:47 PM

Tony, if I can find the list I'll post a link on here. If I remember correctly, the list is broken down by plane type/size. C-152 (or similar) all the way up to Jumbo's. I don't think it should matter how many commuter airlines or major air carriers there are in the US. I think there should be a nation-wide minimum base pay for each type/size aircraft. Then, the individual carrier unions can improve upon that "base pay."

elssaw 09-01-2011 09:04 PM

I like where this is headed
 
It's not a nationwide seniority list but a minimum wage is better than where things are now. Anybody on here know anything about how trade unions work, like Electricians or Plumbers, etc.???

I know Actors have a union which benefits members and non-members alike. For example if you, as a non-member, get picked out of the audience and appear on say David Letterman then you get a certain amount. But if you actually speak on air then you get considerably more. Doesn't matter what company you work for. I don't all the specifics but I do recall some generalities.

Lets keep this discussion going. The only people who lose are management and those management represents.

elssaw 09-02-2011 05:01 AM

Why not?
 

Originally Posted by TonyWilliams (Post 1047769)
Never going to happen. Welcome to the airline biz.


I'm sure this isn't a new concept, and it's been discussed before, but why couldn't it happen? After all, what if two pilots agree, then three, then five, then ten, etc. If enough pilots agree then why not?:)

Rama 09-02-2011 08:55 AM

You'll never get enough to agree. You can't even get enough pilots in one union to get it all together. Look at the US Air mess, next is the SWA/Air Tran merger.

threeighteen 09-02-2011 09:15 AM


Originally Posted by elssaw (Post 1048073)
I'm sure this isn't a new concept, and it's been discussed before, but why couldn't it happen? After all, what if two pilots agree, then three, then five, then ten, etc. If enough pilots agree then why not?:)

Because enough pilots will never agree, and a nationwide union would mean that the union won't have to be worried about being replaced with another union, and thus become lazy, unproductive and suck. ALPA is a great indicator of this... they've become too big and now they're totally junk.

averettpilot 09-02-2011 02:35 PM

Yeah cause pilots have been known to play nice with each other...

Fishfreighter 09-03-2011 09:03 AM

ALPA is the nationwide pilot union. The sooner people realize that, the better off the entire profession will be.

CzechAirman 09-03-2011 09:12 AM

Absolutely NOT in favor of a national seniority list. I'm a member of an independent union. My company is financially sound. My company would be a purchaser of other companies and then they would take selected assets and selected key employees only. My company is in no danger of ever being bought out by another and therefore, I have no worry of having to start over at the bottom of someone else's seniority list.

It seems that the only people in favor of a national seniority list are those working at financially struggling airlines and those that are in danger of being bought out.

Molon Labe 09-03-2011 09:18 AM


Originally Posted by CzechAirman (Post 1048648)
Absolutely NOT in favor of a national seniority list. I'm a member of an independent union. My company is financially sound. My company would be a purchaser of other companies and then they would take selected assets and selected key employees only. My company is in no danger of ever being bought out by another and therefore, I have no worry of having to start over at the bottom of someone else's seniority list.

It seems that the only people in favor of a national seniority list are those working at financially struggling airlines and those that are in danger of being bought out.

Remember those words in twenty years, because surely your day too will come....The wall street types will find a way to punch a hole in your situation and security.....What you have just posted has been said by many in the past during their pilot group's heyday and almost all have had to eat their words.

skigambia 09-03-2011 09:24 AM

Wow Czech, could you put a bigger jinx on your company. Isn't singing the praises of your companies invincibility like talking to your pitcher in the 7th inning about his no-hitter? And, don't you think that there were some Pan-Am and TWA pilots saying the same thing 30 years ago. History has a tendency to repeat itself.

CzechAirman 09-03-2011 09:57 AM


Originally Posted by skigambia (Post 1048657)
Wow Czech, could you put a bigger jinx on your company. Isn't singing the praises of your companies invincibility like talking to your pitcher in the 7th inning about his no-hitter? And, don't you think that there were some Pan-Am and TWA pilots saying the same thing 30 years ago. History has a tendency to repeat itself.


Not worried about a jinx or karma or any of that BS. Only stating facts about my company. Oh, my company isn't an airline in the traditional sense, so it's not subject to traditional airline industry pressures and up and down cycles.

IF something were to happen to my employer, it would be a SHTF and TEOTWAWKI scenario, so starting over at the bottom of someone else's seniority list wouldn't even be on the radar scope.

skigambia 09-03-2011 10:09 AM

Are you the captain of Air Force One?

CzechAirman 09-03-2011 10:41 AM


Originally Posted by skigambia (Post 1048681)
Are you the captain of Air Force One?


No. Just an employee for a integrated transportation and logistics provider that is fairly senior, financially well off and is not worried about my companies future.

My company has purchased two companies that either had or used to have their own airlines at the time of purchase. My company just took selected portions of both companies, mainly operating rights and customer bases. We did not take any aviation related assets or any aviation related employees from either company.

TonyWilliams 09-04-2011 06:17 PM


Originally Posted by Fishfreighter (Post 1048645)
ALPA is the nationwide pilot union. The sooner people realize that, the better off the entire profession will be.


I think their nation is getting smaller....

Twin Wasp 09-05-2011 01:38 AM


Originally Posted by elssaw (Post 1047176)
Imagine a master seniority list. ... With a master seniority list perhaps we don't have to start back at the bottom.

Also, there would have to be some crazy formula to prevent a senior guy from getting furloughed at a one airline and then going right tot he [sic]top of somebody else's seniority list.

So do you want a seniority list or not?

SlickMachine 09-05-2011 04:17 AM


Originally Posted by CzechAirman:1048648
Absolutely NOT in favor of a national seniority list. I'm a member of an independent union. My company is financially sound. My company would be a purchaser of other companies and then they would take selected assets and selected key employees only. My company is in no danger of ever being bought out by another and therefore, I have no worry of having to start over at the bottom of someone else's seniority list.

It seems that the only people in favor of a national seniority list are those working at financially struggling airlines and those that are in danger of being bought out.

It is always entertaining watching and reading posts like this from those eager to "one up" everyone, even when the venue and topic renders your comments completely irrelevant. Yes, you are THAT GUY...congratulations. Got any big fish stories you could tell us?

CzechAirman 09-05-2011 07:45 AM


Originally Posted by SlickMachine (Post 1049448)
It is always entertaining watching and reading posts like this from those eager to "one up" everyone, even when the venue and topic renders your comments completely irrelevant. Yes, you are THAT GUY...congratulations. Got any big fish stories you could tell us?

I wasn't "one upping" anyone, just stating facts about my company. Your comments are typical of today's society where there can be no winners or losers, that wouldn't be "fair". There are winners and losers in society. I'll be the first to admit that I'm very fortunate to have landing at a winning company. Just because you didn't, don't drag me or my company down to your level.

averettpilot 09-05-2011 11:13 AM

You say "my company" too much for me to believe you're actually with a company. If you're so proud, name it.

CzechAirman 09-05-2011 11:38 AM

I've given you more than enough clues to figure it out. I don't have to prove anything to you.

averettpilot 09-05-2011 11:43 AM

That's what I thought...

CaptCoolHand 09-05-2011 12:37 PM

Dude... he works for UPS. how hard was that? I didn't even read every post.

averettpilot 09-05-2011 02:10 PM

That's fine, didn't know this was a gameshow. Anyway, the guy needs to practice a little humility.

Molon Labe 09-05-2011 03:04 PM


Originally Posted by averettpilot (Post 1049697)
That's fine, didn't know this was a gameshow. Anyway, the guy needs to practice a little humility.

Hubris has it's own rewards, his day will come and then he will wish there were a hiring hall like the MM&P has or MEBA, or other maritime unions...but sadly the cycle is doomed to perpetuate itself partly due to attitudes like his, and the hubris it embodies.

FixTheMess 09-23-2011 05:14 AM


Originally Posted by CzechAirman (Post 1049515)
I wasn't "one upping" anyone, just stating facts about my company. Your comments are typical of today's society where there can be no winners or losers, that wouldn't be "fair". There are winners and losers in society. I'll be the first to admit that I'm very fortunate to have landing at a winning company. Just because you didn't, don't drag me or my company down to your level.

Since you are such a huge winner, why are you lurking these forums, engaging in talk about all of us losers? I think everyone here has met someone like you before. Its pretty blatantly obvious, you're a huge "D"... Sorry, just stating facts about you and your posts.

Phantom Flyer 09-23-2011 03:33 PM

Same Circus, Different Clowns
 

Originally Posted by elssaw (Post 1047176)
Would anyone else on here be in favor of a Nationwide Pilot's Union and therefore a Nationwide Seniority List???

This idea has been kicked around for at least 15 years. While conceptually, it sounds good, the cold hard reality is that it will NEVER gain any traction.

Just think about the reality of the concept. Where do you start ? What criteria does one use to establish the "seniority list" ? Does X number of years as an F/O on a EMB-145 flying domestically equate to the same time spent as an F/O on a 747-400 flying internationally ? No matter how you slice it, there isn't common ground to start on and the idea will never see V1.

Welcome to the airline industry....and G'Luck Mate:)

HotMamaPilot 09-24-2011 04:16 PM

Czech, you are a piece of work. On a side note, the comment about telling your pitcher about his no-hitter in the seventh inning........that made me lol! Thanks.

Phantom Flyer 09-24-2011 05:05 PM

Some Oxygen for Fishfreighter Please.
 

Originally Posted by Fishfreighter (Post 1048645)
ALPA is the nationwide pilot union. The sooner people realize that, the better off the entire profession will be.

ALPA is NOT the nationwide pilot union. There are several independent pilot organization (UPS, Southwest, American) that are probably a lot more effective. ALPA is loosing traction as the representative of even those they pretend to represent.

G'Luck with that concept.:)

justjack 09-26-2011 10:03 AM

It is too late now- but this should have been done the day after deregulation. Pilots would not be in the situation that they are now in if they had developed a national seniority list 25 years ago. ALPA should have thought of this- but then pilots are ALPA. I have heard pilots talking about how they would move up if this airline went out of business or that airline was bought. You could practically see them salivating at the thought of profiting from another pilots misfortune. It is the nature of the beast. Pilots would eat their own young if the demise of their offspring would open up a left seat. So congratulations to all of you- mostly white males who really could not ever imagine yourselves as part of the working class. Management figured you out 25 years ago. They took everything that you held dear- being part of the elite. Management used 9/11 to do what they had wanted to do since deregulation. They waved the magic wand of bankruptcy and made you all middle class in the blink of an eye! Here’s what is so ironic- you did not see it coming because you thought that you were indispensable- until you realized that you were not only dispensable, but that because of seniority, you would be at the bottom of the heap at 50 years old, at best. You were not really like those “other” union members. YOU were more like management- they would not do this to you. How could they? They could and they did and they did it with your blessing. And still you do not learn. It is not over. You think that all of these old guys will retire and clear the way for you. You are wrong. Globalization is coming. You see just how fast the retirement age changed when it proved beneficial for the capitalist system. And low and behold guys who only ten years earlier would have never thought that they would be trying to make it to 65, had no retirement and would work as long as they could pass a “flight” (which is also quite laughable) physical. “The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house”

Lab Rat 12-02-2011 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by CzechAirman View Post
Absolutely NOT in favor of a national seniority list. I'm a member of an independent union. My company is financially sound. My company would be a purchaser of other companies and then they would take selected assets and selected key employees only. My company is in no danger of ever being bought out by another and therefore, I have no worry of having to start over at the bottom of someone else's seniority list.

It seems that the only people in favor of a national seniority list are those working at financially struggling airlines and those that are in danger of being bought out.






Originally Posted by Molon Labe (Post 1048651)
Remember those words in twenty years, because surely your day too will come....The wall street types will find a way to punch a hole in your situation and security.....What you have just posted has been said by many in the past during their pilot group's heyday and almost all have had to eat their words.

Not really. The pilots you are referring to worked for airlines in an airline industry. None of those folks you are referring to worked for multi-billion dollar, worldwide shipping conglomerates.

I agree with Czech Airman. The vast majority of the people who support a "national seniority list" are those working for bankrupt or near-bankrupt airlines.

Molon Labe 12-03-2011 09:16 AM

Lab Rat, This year's industry analyst darling is next decade's financial basket case...Only the foolhardy dare say "It can never happen here!".....Case in point, in 1983 American Airlines owed almost nothing and expanded very prosperously (non-stop) until 1991..weathered the early 1990s recession very nicely....The analysts thought them unstoppable....Humm...History is dotted with those stories......Even the Cargo side is not immune, you just need to look farther back....So your hubris is most amusing...Your day will surely come..

Lab Rat 12-03-2011 10:01 AM

..........

RJSAviator76 12-03-2011 07:13 PM

Seniority lists are so.... 1920's.

Forget them in their current form, along with any compensation based on so-called seniority. As long as you're basing one's pay to their date-of-hire and date-of-hire alone, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

Want to look at "seniority"? Look at how things are done overseas at places like Emirates. Seniority? Yeah, it has its place, but it's not the end-all-be-all, and that seems like the biggest hurdle for US pilots to overcome.

As long as you potentially have a member being paid $30/hour and $90/hour for doing the EXACT same job in the same seat, you'll have MBA's (who have never seen such a thing before anywhere else) be good number crunchers/businessmen and keep you as close to that $30/hour mark as possible.

Lab Rat 12-04-2011 11:24 AM

A nationwide seniority list will solve nothing. The problem is way too many people competing for way too few jobs and willing to do those jobs for next-to-nothing in pay.

Lab Rat 12-04-2011 11:31 AM


Management used 9/11 to do what they had wanted to do since deregulation. They waved the magic wand of bankruptcy and made you all middle class in the blink of an eye!
One cannot fault management for just doing their jobs. And let us not forget that management could not do that without the cooperation of many pilots willing to hand everything for the sake of flying a jet. They, management, wouldn't have been able to wave the magic wand if the majority of pilots hadn't collectively given them the wand in the first place. Regardless of the fact that pay, benefits, and retirements have been shredded, it sure beats working in a cubicle, right?

Don't fault management. Nowhere in any business course are future accountants taught the pilots are owed six-figure salaries.

Pilot7576 12-05-2011 07:24 AM

management pogue
 
Folks...

Let me apologize for CzechAirman's comments. He is not really a ups pilot, he is a non union replacement pilot (NURP) hired to subvert the IPA union. These "instant management captains" have no credibility on the line and most are looked down upon as pretenders.

JTF

Pilot7576

Skyone 12-10-2011 09:46 AM


Originally Posted by RJSAviator76 (Post 1096121)
Seniority lists are so.... 1920's.

Forget them in their current form, along with any compensation based on so-called seniority. As long as you're basing one's pay to their date-of-hire and date-of-hire alone, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

Want to look at "seniority"? Look at how things are done overseas at places like Emirates. Seniority? Yeah, it has its place, but it's not the end-all-be-all, and that seems like the biggest hurdle for US pilots to overcome.

As long as you potentially have a member being paid $30/hour and $90/hour for doing the EXACT same job in the same seat, you'll have MBA's (who have never seen such a thing before anywhere else) be good number crunchers/businessmen and keep you as close to that $30/hour mark as possible.

Exactly, one hundred percent correct. The first time I remember the NSL being brought up was at the ALPA BOD during the Republic/NWA merger in the mid eighties. As far as a minimum wage, what a terrible idea. If a union says that a minimum wage for a 737 captain was, lets say 140/hr., I know if I were on the other side of the table I would be trying to negotiate DOWN to that wage. Or if a company was truly having difficulties and wanted to lower the wage to 130 (after opening the books), and the pilots agreed, are they deemed "scabs" or performing a sort of wildcat strike against the Union. Just some random thoughts.


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