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Signs you may be an Internet tough guy:
Originally Posted by Grumble
(Post 2429334)
If you didn't stand firm the first time, what spine did you magically grow since then?
So you are lumping me with a group that I have not indicated any inclination toward in my words or actions. Not to mention that the group in question was probably over 80% of UAL at the time. Hindsight is 20/20, so its easy to say they caved. I wasn't in their shoes, its hard to say what I would've advocated/voted for. But i was commuting then. I listened to a lot of justifying and fear disguised as reason. Who could blame them? It was an unprecedented time.
Originally Posted by Grumble
(Post 2429334)
"Tough guy forumitis".... maybe the problem is you and your lack of confidence that's easily intimidated by those with conviction.
Classic internet tough guy stuff. In the end, most things in life aren't as simple as a yes or no vote. With us or against us. Blue or Red. MSNBC or FOX. The spectrum of what pilots want out of the next contract has at least 12,000 points between a willing BOHICA and the categorical NO. So, maybe my desire to hear more wisdom from a reliable source (mako) belies humility and a sense that others may have something to add to my perspective, rather than the internet tough guy, who comes here to preach his over-developed opinions Maybe you're a source of wisdom Grumble, and the wife and drink have you representing your handle unusually well, but your post came off as the epitome of tough-guy-I'm the sheriff 'round these parts-forumitus, not an enlightened and unique perspective. And if you're not adding the conversation, merely providing a predictable echo, why waste your breath? |
Originally Posted by duvie
(Post 2429356)
Signs you may be an Internet tough guy:
Based on absolutely no evidence, you put me in an easily villifiable group, given the leanings of people on this site. Otherwise known as pandering, or preaching to the choir. So you are lumping me with a group that I have not indicated any inclination toward in my words or actions. Not to mention that the group in question was probably over 80% of UAL at the time. Hindsight is 20/20, so its easy to say they caved. I wasn't in their shoes, its hard to say what I would've advocated/voted for. But i was commuting then. I listened to a lot of justifying and fear disguised as reason. Who could blame them? It was an unprecedented time. You allude to the fact that I may be unprincipled because I'd like to have a nuanced discussion of the facts. Classic internet tough guy stuff. In the end, most things in life aren't as simple as a yes or no vote. With us or against us. Blue or Red. MSNBC or FOX. The spectrum of what pilots want out of the next contract has at least 12,000 points between a willing BOHICA and the categorical NO. So, maybe my desire to hear more wisdom from a reliable source (mako) belies humility and a sense that others may have something to add to my perspective, rather than the internet tough guy, who comes here to preach his over-developed opinions Maybe you're a source of wisdom Grumble, and the wife and drink have you representing your handle unusually well, but your post came off as the epitome of tough-guy-I'm the sheriff 'round these parts-forumitus, not an enlightened and unique perspective. And if you're not adding the conversation, merely providing a predictable echo, why waste your breath? |
Originally Posted by oldmako
(Post 2429256)
Well, not to be a jerk but more to try and refresh the memory of the old farts and to promote dialog and to educate the half wingers and Marvins,
Times were also pretty good when we - Enjoyed Deadhead travel in First Class, Had a lucrative Pension, Had Vacation Override, ("can you say more time at home"?) Paid MUCH less for Health Insurance, Got paid MUCH more per hour when adjusted for inflation and COLA, Bid actual lines and didn't have to deal with QOL life sucking PBS, ("can you say more time at home"?) Could actually trade and or drop trips, Had the Big Dump, Had Trip and Duty Rigs with teeth, ("can you say more time at home"?) Got paid more for training, Enjoyed crystal clear and SIMPLE payroll accounting, Understood FIFO and your spot in the stack, Could EASILY Non-Rev, (often in First and for... bupkis!), Didn't have to deal with AMS and Pilot Pushing, (did someone say, -"Captains Authority"???) Weren't taxed on a whole MESS of stuff like we are now - at the behest of MU. etc. etc. etc Yes...I am a cranky malcontent. But, before we all start willingly and gleefully smoking what they're offering while patting ourselves on the back, let's not forget what we used to enjoy and HOW it was wrested away during the giant Ponzi scheme that was our "bankruptcy". Tell me, where did that last big avoided pension payment money go? Yes(!), things have improved. But lets not relax our sphincters and lose sight of what we once had. And of what the recent retirees fought so hard for AND WON when times were merely ordinary and MU wasn't the juggernaut that it is today. There are apples, and there are oranges. I prefer citrus myself. ;) |
Originally Posted by Probe
(Post 2429364)
All true James, but remember, we were, and are volunteers in the process. None of it was taken from us, we voted for it.
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Originally Posted by duvie
(Post 2429326)
Mako,
Your posts are generally a wonderful light in a sea of tough-guy-forumitus. This particular post... were you referencing any C2000 stuff? Because that contract IMHO was an outlier and not a sustainable contract to be referenced for future negotiations. I, and I think many others, would rather leave some money on the table, but keep my pay up during economic down turns, rather than choke the golden goose, and lose it all when said goose loses consciousness a la David Carradine (too soon?) I get the company can come after a sub par contract as well during recessions, but I think many of us are still acutely aware of being duped by management and anti-labor governments and would stand firmer next time around, especially if the contract wasn't like C2000 and the recession wasn't the worst since the 1930s. FWIW The only way management can void our contract is through bankruptcy. I seriously doubt management will declare CH11 for every economic downturn to secure contract concessions. To leave money on the table is only selling yourself, and my family, short. Take all you can get. Management certainly did during bankruptcy and continues to this day. The majors don't come after a contract like the regionals do. At the regionals pilots are told take a cut or lose flying via whipsaw. At the majors, the company just doesn't negotiate and hides behind the RLA. Time is on their side. Finally, C2000 was in...2000, and the "Great" recession was in 2007. Just saying. |
Originally Posted by XHooker
(Post 2429445)
Yes and no. The environment changed and the choices went from the menu at a five star steakhouse to the dollar menu at McDs. Right now we're doing pretty well considering the hand we've been dealt. I just try to forget about what we had "back in the day" and hope we aren't soon remembering the present as "the good times."
Just because Darla Sue doesn't beat you anymore does it mean she has your best interest at heart. |
Originally Posted by Floyd
(Post 2429452)
To characterize C2000 as an outlier shows a lack of historical understanding. C2000 was a byproduct of the give backs suffered during the ESOP. After some difficulty we secured a mid term wage adjustment in '97, but C2000 was essentially catch up from '94. For those who think we're enjoying a lucrative compensation package, you might change your mind if you compare past contracts adjusted for inflation.
While C2000 was a raise of ~30% on average, after the ESOP give/midterm and adjusted for COL/inflation taken into accout, wasn't it only about 10-12%? 777CA on C2000, $289. Adjusted, for today $407 756 CA on C2000, $242. Adjusted for today $341 Airbus CA on C2000, $232. Adjusted for today $326 Never mind all the things Mako brought up...... |
Originally Posted by John Carr
(Post 2429502)
^^^^^Can't be said often/LOUD enough.
While C2000 was a raise of ~30% on average, after the ESOP give/midterm and adjusted for COL/inflation taken into accout, wasn't it only about 10-12%? 777CA on C2000, $289. Adjusted, for today $407 756 CA on C2000, $242. Adjusted for today $341 Airbus CA on C2000, $232. Adjusted for today $326 Never mind all the things Mako brought up...... |
Originally Posted by Grumble
(Post 2429510)
Given what was stolen from the esop, I'd argue those numbers still aren't high enough to recoup those losses.
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Originally Posted by JetPilotMike
(Post 2426154)
My first time (in a long time) visit to TK last year for 737 MVLOE. While waiting to check into hotel, a couple of IAH based 737 guys were *****ing up a storm about having to travel to Denver. They went on and on about how a snow storm could shut down DENTK and how could they not have built in Houston. I said what if a big storm shut down Houston and they said that would never happen. :cool:
My thoughts on this are, Denver has a very stange climate, it can snow in summer and it usually snows in winter. With climate change, I am not certain that this will get any better in the same way that Houston is bound to have more hurricanes, or at least more powerful ones. The difference is Houston does not generally experience multiple hurricanes annually (it had been 12 years since the last major hurricane made landfall in the USA), where Denver does expect multiple snow falls every winter. So while it is rare for Denver to receive 10 or more inches in one day, it would be unrealistic to say that Houston is more likely to be shut down. Harvey was a record breaker, beating Amelia's 48 inches of rainfall in 1978 (39 years ago). |
Except the foot of snow in my driveway doesn't destroy my house. And I have a snowblower.
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Originally Posted by dmeg13021
(Post 2429732)
Except the foot of snow in my driveway doesn't destroy my house. And I have a snowblower.
Also if memory serves me correctly, Denver is at a much higher risk for fires when there isn't enough snow. In 2012 didn't the Waldo Canyon fire destroy about 350 homes and burn over 18,000 acres near Colorado Springs? Then there was the 2013 Colorado Front range flood. Granted Boulder was hit hardest but 19,000 homes were damaged and 1500 destroyed. There are risks no matter where you choose to locate the building...personally I would have kept two locations. Should a snow storm stop operations you can use the other facility, should a hurricane stop operations you can do the event in Denver. Yes it costs more to have two facilities, but it costs even more if you ever need to borrow someone else's devices because of a problem at your one location. |
Originally Posted by Groundpointfife
(Post 2429759)
Until you have the lovely erratic Denver weather drop 2 ft of snow, then temperatures above freezing causing it to melt and flood. But hey, just like those Houston 737 drivers who said "it'll never happen" you can think that there won't ever be a disaster.
Also if memory serves me correctly, Denver is at a much higher risk for fires when there isn't enough snow. In 2012 didn't the Waldo Canyon fire destroy about 350 homes and burn over 18,000 acres near Colorado Springs? Then there was the 2013 Colorado Front range flood. Granted Boulder was hit hardest but 19,000 homes were damaged and 1500 destroyed. There are risks no matter where you choose to locate the building...personally I would have kept two locations. Should a snow storm stop operations you can use the other facility, should a hurricane stop operations you can do the event in Denver. Yes it costs more to have two facilities, but it costs even more if you ever need to borrow someone else's devices because of a problem at your one location. Hard to produce a consistent product if you have two locations. |
Originally Posted by Groundpointfife
(Post 2429759)
Until you have the lovely erratic Denver weather drop 2 ft of snow, then temperatures above freezing causing it to melt and flood. But hey, just like those Houston 737 drivers who said "it'll never happen" you can think that there won't ever be a disaster.
Also if memory serves me correctly, Denver is at a much higher risk for fires when there isn't enough snow. In 2012 didn't the Waldo Canyon fire destroy about 350 homes and burn over 18,000 acres near Colorado Springs? Then there was the 2013 Colorado Front range flood. Granted Boulder was hit hardest but 19,000 homes were damaged and 1500 destroyed. There are risks no matter where you choose to locate the building...personally I would have kept two locations. Should a snow storm stop operations you can use the other facility, should a hurricane stop operations you can do the event in Denver. Yes it costs more to have two facilities, but it costs even more if you ever need to borrow someone else's devices because of a problem at your one location. |
Originally Posted by SUX4U
(Post 2429822)
god damn hippies, etc.
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I think everyone here is lookin at this wrong.
The training center is one part of the equation. I almost guarantee that the current site and remodel revived the biggest incentives from the City of Denver and the state of Colorado. The rest of this is small potatoes. If I remember correctly the city of Denver offer just north of a Billion dollars in breaks to United. Think bigger than just a training center. All of a sudden DEN is the highest margin airport(the pot Industry definitely helped this but that only part of the picture). The location had everything to do with a better deal overall for Denver not where the training center is located. |
What's wrong with hippies?
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Like I said....TK was already owned, big enough to house all the sims, with enough land for expansion. Why start over? Add in some city of Denver incentives = NO BRAINER.
But I never considered the wildfires!!! I hope somebody did an analysis on that. :rolleyes: Anywho, I'm just glad that I will resume my PCs and Transitions about 35 min from the homestead. That's PRICELESS. :cool: |
Originally Posted by worstpilotever
(Post 2429942)
What's wrong with hippies?
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Originally Posted by SUX4U
(Post 2429975)
I'm just a little skeptical of them after their attempt to take over a small town in South Park Colorado with a music festival. Fortunately 4 young boys saved the town.
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Originally Posted by worstpilotever
(Post 2429942)
What's wrong with hippies?
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Why is everyone comparing a hurricane in Houston (causes lots of damage) to snowstorms in denver (no damage, just delayed/cancelled flights)? It makes no sense. If anything, snow in Denver is more comparable to the thunderstorms in Houston that cancel flights. Wildfires in denver, which don't happen, would be more comparable to hurricanes in IAH. They may happen in the springs and the foothills but they don't happen in denver. Maybe tornadoes, but I can't even think of the last time a tornado caused damage at the denver airport. Houston has flooded every year for the past three years!
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I was hoping that the training center might have been moved in an effort to clean the place out and improve the quality of the product that seems to be going down hill the last years. JMO
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I'm not singling you out, I'm just saying if I was mgmt, I wouldn't take the risk of having my very expensive simulators become boats every couple years
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I can't believe this thread is still drawing posts. I figured one page tops.
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Originally Posted by spaaks
(Post 2430067)
I'm not singling you out, I'm just saying if I was mgmt, I wouldn't take the risk of having my very expensive simulators become boats every couple years
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Originally Posted by SUX4U
(Post 2429822)
Name me any random city for our training center location and myself or other members on here can break down how bad that city would be. Maybe it's bad airport connectivity, wild fires, thunderstorms, ice storms, tornadoes, heat waves, earth quakes, god damn hippies, etc.
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Is there a problem with having multiple training sites? Different aircraft in different cities. Just thinking out loud. Obviously that ship has sailed but just a thought.
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Originally Posted by cal73
(Post 2430348)
Is there a problem with having multiple training sites? Different aircraft in different cities. Just thinking out loud. Obviously that ship has sailed but just a thought.
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Originally Posted by Dave Fitzgerald
(Post 2430399)
Cost.....They won't stick to the contract or pay for expensed crew meals. They won't spend a dime more than they have to on training. Hence the train by bulletin mentality.
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Originally Posted by syd111
(Post 2430500)
Which is why I would have liked it out of both places and start new. The amount of bulletins that come out are hard to believe, is someone sitting around just getting paid to put these out? lol
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