The so-called "scope discussion" is dead with ALL MAINLINE PILOTS.

We ain't giving shtt up. No more givebacks period. No givebacks with a fox, no givebacks in a box. no givebacks in a shoe, no givebacks sniffing glue. No givebacks with some ham, no givebacks at all Sam I am.

If we want some good "IRON CLAD" scope language at the mainline carriers, better go out and hire some former 10 year regional FO's to staff your negotiating committee. The guys stuck at the regionals thanks to so-called "scope relief" at mainline carriers are still paying off their second hand Ford Escorts and their second mortgages.

Great poem!

Be very careful who you elect as your LEC reps. Ask for unequivocal assurances that not one ounce of scope will be bargained away in exchange for anything.

This content was originally posted here: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/2461227-post9.html


United ALPA pilots do not need to lose scope to secure orders of aircraft which UAL already needs. UAL can currently outsource 504 regional aircraft equivalent to 90% of UAL's mainline count of narrow-body fleet. This equates to a max potential outsourcing of over 31,218 physical seats! 255 of the 504 aircraft (45.5% of narrow-body fleet) are larger 70/76 airframes (18,768+ physical seats) which UAL may outsource. Kirby does not need outsourcing, he simply wants it to keep ALPA and the piloting profession from growing more unified.

United gorged itself on regional flying to the point that outsourced flying became a financial liability. At one point roughly 63% of UAL departures were once outsourced, which in part hampered United Airlines’ post-merger profitability. UALPA pilots and other labor
groups can lose temporary contract improvements and see management walk away from large aircraft orders at the collective cost of thousands of pilot furloughs.

All united regional flying could be in-soursed in the next 15 year period because currency inflation threatens the “regional” airline model. Real inflation remains a constant of indefinite quantitative easing (QE) Federal Reserve policy. World markets dominated by debt and service sectors have little tolerance for an absence of currency inflation. Financial analysts continue to call for QE stimulated GDP growth. United ALPA must recognize that continuous inflation puts the very life or death of every regional business model squarely in the hands of legacy mainline pilots. Current market forces are an opportunity to reduce the quantity of physically outsourced mainline seats. The 50-seat aircraft of the day will soon be obsolete and over the next 15 years, the 76 seat jets of today will become uneconomically equivalent to today's 50-seat jets.

We must not repeat United's history and guard against permanent action incentivized by shortsighted reward. Even notable aviation consultants Mark Swelbar and Michael Boyd believe that mainline pilot unions will not repeat past outsourcing mistakes. We only have two unions left in the country who control this outcome! Have APA and ALPA learned from past outsourcing mistakes?

The most number of UAL flights should simply be operated by actual UAL pilots. Insourcing via up-gauging via Embraer 195-E2 or Bombardier C-Series 100/300 aircraft would help solve the pilot pay shortage and strangle the Regional Airline Association! Otherwise, to relax scope will exacerbate the pilot pay shortage and pressure congress to lower pilot qualification standards and increase the retirement age beyond age 65.

A hypothetical United Express fleet restructuring that reduces counts of 76-seat or smaller aircraft to add 100-150 seat aircraft improves cost efficiency generating modest capacity growth with fewer aircraft, departures, and staff. Lower operational frequency opens both gate & slot space while solving environmental concern with reduced unit carbon emission, unit fuel consumption and lower system-wide rates of air traffic congestion. Ultimately, insourcing coupled with appropriate work rules and employee recognition (ie. profit sharing) drives superior mainline culture and customer experience.
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Too many generations of pilots have suffered furlough brought by outsourcing—no group suffered more than United pilots victimized by Scope reductions.

“If each pilot makes his or her union decisions based on what’s best for the group [as well as] profession instead of self-interest, we will succeed." Let's leave this industry better than we found it and not repeat the past!

To avoid the "don't negotiate in public" ninnies,

ABSOLUTELY NO ON ANY SCOPE RELIEF.

NOT GONNA DISCUSS IT OR LISTEN TO ANYTHING THAT INCLUDES IT.

Not a negotiation. A line in the sand.

The MEC should tell management scope relief is a non-starter so they get the picture!

I’m pretty sure “they get the picture.”

That’s why we are seeing direct appeals to pilots. Kirby has lots on his plate so if he has time to “visit” hubs and talk about scope it means it is important to him.

The only real question: how many will fall for it? (again)

Question for you. I believe most of our pilots would agree our MC easily slants towards the militant side. Our MEC as a whole may not be as militant as our MC, but certainly no push overs.

That being said, how does Kirby bypass our union leadership and negotiate directly with our pilots? With the latest election LEC election cycles complete it would take years for pilots to make significant changes to our ALPA leadership.

If our MEC directs our Negotiating Committee as the NC works for the MEC and our MC is a defacto member of the NC and a voting member of the United Airlines Board of Directors. Again how can Kirby bypass the union and negotiate directly with the pilots,
circumventing our union leadership?

I think what we are seeing is "indirect appeals" to pilots. Just had a line check. Check Airman gave the usual debrief at cruise, very nice stuff, current events, LOSA stuff, hot topics, etc. Then, got a great perspective on Kirby's visit to the check airman's meeting. Basically heard all about how Kirby has a plan and it's centered on RJ scope relief and how Delta is doing this and Delta is doing that and it's all hinged upon scope relief.

I honestly don't think Kirby should be going to check airman's meetings and discussing his scope relief plans. The direct hard-sell to the check airman and instructors translates into strong indirect pressure to line pilots. Furthermore, It is not a check airman's job to come onto the line and sit in the jump seat and keep discussing Kirby this and Kirby that. Let Kirby negotiate with the NC and not our LCA's.

On that note, do we have any weak-arse MEC reps that either need an education, or need to get recalled? The scope issue is so big that if we have any weak animals they need to be culled from the herd. Any weak-kneed reps that don't get it can either resign now, or face recall shortly. This likely needs to be the number one topic of discussion at all LC meetings. Get the reps on the record and then get the NC reps opinions on the record. If the company can negotiate out in the open by using the LCA's, we can negotiate out in the open by getting those in a position of power and influence within ALPA out in the open on the issue.

It's a net positive really. That way Kirby can realize this horse is dead, and he can start to come up with other-more creative ways to make money and compete. In the end, we're doing the company a favor by taking scope off the table early on, instead of late in the game.

^^^
This

Besides, isn’t DAL’s scope essentially similar to ours at this point?

Or do they just have smarter management?