I guess it’s all in a person’s perspective.

You must of been LCAL, because the LUAL pilots were working on a contract prior to the merger and comments from a particular eastern LCAL council were rather negative (if my memory serves me correctly).

After 4 decades of this 2 years is a pushing it to the max and far from a rush. LUAL exchange of opening letters fall 1983, strike spring of 1985.

Perception and personal need guide us all.

LCAL pilots were also working on a contract prior to the merger.

Why is that?

So it wasn't a rush after all, maybe more like 3 or 4 years, depending on when you all exchange openers.

I also believe there was a lot of talk about a possible strike, I don't remember if we actually took a vote to authorize one.

Because we had leverage like we've never had, (see Smallsack wanting the deal done to look good for the shareholders), and we settled on a good many items that could have been improved vastly.

All water under the bridge but I do remember the UAL side saying the deal had to get approved quickly due to a myriad of reasons hence the irony comment.

That is absolutely hilarious. I won't even get into all the CALALPA shenanigans, but suffices to say their mantra that repeated often was "contracts come and go, but seniority lasts forever."

You might try selling crazy elsewhere because we are full up here in APC land.

No irony at all it’s as previously stated, personal perspective and desires and 2+ years is hardly a rush.

Well I guess Reps from both sides voted no so perhaps they saw it differently.

As a PS, how'd you enjoy that full retro pay?

Yet another great point, not. Both MECs voted to approve the JCBA as did 2 of 3 pilots.

So, negotiating in public now? Think Kirby cares?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed...ks-hit-a-snag/

Not negotiating just an update in public, which is a notable change from the air tight lid they’ve kept on it for the last 11 months.

14,860 viewsFeb 1, 2019, 06:05pm
United Airlines Pilot Contract Talks Hit A Snag
Ted Reed
Ted Reed
Contributor
Aerospace & Defense




United Airlines aircraft at George Bush Intercontinental Airport in Houston. (Getty photo)GETTY
Pilots at United Airlines, who have been negotiating a new contract for nearly a year, say they have hit a snag regarding their scope clause, which determines how much flying can be outsourced.

“We started negotiations early and we were making good progress, but scope is a hold up,” union spokesman Greg Everhard, a Boeing 767 captain, said Friday.

The contract covering United’s 12,500 pilots became amendable Thursday. The carrier and the United chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association, which have enjoyed a positive relationship over the past few years, agreed to start negotiations early in March 2018.

However, “Despite efforts to reach a seamless agreement, critical items remain between us and a final deal,” three dozen union leaders including United ALPA President Todd Insler wrote Thursday in a letter to members. “We will not be rushed into an agreement that does not meet the needs of membership simply for the sake of expediency.”

The gap between the parties reflects disagreement on the carrier’s effort to alter the scope clause, the letter said. Currently, the carrier is limited to flying 255 aircraft with 70 to 76 seats, smaller jets flown by pilots who work not for United but for one of the eight regional airlines that contracts to fly shorter routes.

“For many months, United's senior leadership has publicly expressed their desire to change our [contractual] regional jet scope limitations,” the letter said. “In response to this rhetoric, the United pilots have stated loud and clear we have no interest in allowing management to expand their reliance on an outdated and flawed strategy of outsourcing.

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“There are several easy and practical solutions that ensure robust feed to our network,” the letter said. “These innovative concepts would redefine United Airlines and the industry in a positive, meaningful way.”

United spokeswoman Megan McCarthy declined Friday to provide details on scope negotiations. “We continue to work with ALPA on issues that are important to the company and important to our pilots,” she said. “We will leave those discussions at the table.”

The current United contract pilot includes rates for pilots who fly 90 seat aircraft. Those pilots are paid $91 an hour and can fly 1,000 hours a year. Similar compensation of $91,000 annually is attainable at regional carriers because the continuing pilot shortage has forced such carriers to raise hourly pay and to offer signing bonuses and retention bonuses.

In general, pilot contract rates are related to the number of seats on the aircraft the pilot flies, so an aircraft with 70 to 76 seats would have a lower pay rate than an aircraft with 90 seats.

United President Scott Kirby is at the center of the carrier’s effort to expand the scope clause. Speaking at an investor conference in March, Kirby said he is intent on “driving higher connectivity and revenue quality” by providing more capacity from cities such as Columbia Mo., and Rochester Minn. to United hubs. Such routes can only be efficiently served by 76-seat regional jets, he said.

Kirby said adding 76-seaters is a “win-win” because feeding the mainline creates better opportunities for mainline pilots, but he noted, “I get why our pilots are really nervous about this – if I were a pilot, I’d be really nervous about it.”

The remarks provoked a response from Insler, who wrote in a March letter to pilots that “Despite the public statements from the company about needing ‘scope relief,’ they have the ability to add 76-seat aircraft under current [contract] language,” Insler wrote. “No relief is needed.”

United “can add 76-seaters tomorrow with no restrictions if they are flown by mainline pilots,” he said. “We have done the math and know that mainline United pilots can deliver the current 76-seat product with better economics, improved reliability and with a superior customer experience for our passengers, just as we do on our current fleets.”

In 2014, during contract talks with pilots at American Airlines, where he previously worked, Kirby also sought scope concessions. The reaction from American pilots then was similar to the reaction from United pilots today.

“Scope is a religious issue to pilots,” said Dennis Tajer, spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association. “It’s so fundamental for our pilots that Mr. Kirby’s persistent scope concession requests almost undermined the trust and culture change he was trying to promote.”

Like United pilots, American pilots are also negotiating a new contract. But scope does not appear to be an issue. During American’s fourth quarter earnings call, Chief Financial Officer Derek Kerr was asked whether American Airlines Group will order more regional jets for the regional carriers it owns. Kerr said delivery of 15 regional jets in 2020 “will pretty close to max out our large RJ scope, so we don’t expect anymore.”

Last week, in a letter to APA members, President Dan Carey said union priorities include improved scheduling, “contract repair, with a focus on items that were modified in bankruptcy,” and “industry-leading hourly pay rates and address gaps in compensation and benefits.”

just thinking out loud
i wonder if UALPA is saying to mgmt at the negotiating table, "it's a hard no on changing the scope clause one word" or if they are actually negotiating but going even more hardline in the other direction. something like- "ok, if you want more large rj's it's going to look something like this. You can have more large rj's, but the mainline/regional block hour ratio limit has to go up/down drastically in favor of mainline, and if you ever furlough a single pilot, you have to park every single 50,70,76 seat RJ until that mainline pilot is brought back.

Please explain...?

Meaning it’s gonna be a while before there’s a contract to vote on

We’re past the amendable date. The company benefits because they can keep wages stagnant during negotiations. If anything less than full retro is given, then it incentivizes the company to delay every time a contract is due.

Nothing less than Full retro...5 days and counting

Ahhh the retro pay, errr signing bonus. I love contract time. Almost as good as profit sharing. Rinse, wash, repeat.

RETRO pay? Now that's funny.

:rolleyes:

So how long and how many contracts have you experienced as an ALPA pilot?

4% raise for 2019 thanks to the extension. I'm good for a year. Let the scope choke turn em blue. :cool:

Exactly. I'm enjoying that contract extension pay raise almost as much as my 3 for 1 trip rig.

Did trip rig change when I wasn’t looking?

No it did not. ;)

Nice sarcasm. 1 for 3 would be incredible, seeing as how nobody has it. Our current trip rig is 1 for 3.5... Just like AA, DL, AK, and JB. Page 24...

http://www.alpa.org/ual/-/media/UAL/...ison-guide.pdf

Was just thinking the same thing. Not sure how this toxic thinking has permeated our ranks, but it’s all too common. At some point, somebody has to be the first to break through the previous pay, work rules etc to lead the pack. If not, we’d never have successful pattern bargaining. It’s kinda like the ridiculous “pie is only x” and we have to decide how to divide it cuz that’s what management told us! Ummmm, nooooo. You need to EXPAND the pie👍👍👍

I'm sure the company enjoys that cheap extension as well, including our 3.5:1 rig.

Me thinks you're an angry legacy pilot. Get with the program you old codger. :D

I would argue we've (ALPA) had incredibly successful pattern bargaining since the 2010 Delta contract. Expanding pay rates, trip rig, vacation, and training value. I expect that to continue.

Amen gentlemen. We're so busy salivating over what Delta will do next while we hide in the corner so we can "me too" ourselves into the stratosphere.

Guess we're just too timid or stupid to the lead the industry under our own steam.

Go Delta !! :cool:

Thanks for the complement👍👍

Out of curiosity do you do the same with your budget at home, just expand the pie?

Maybe you should ask management that when fuel prices spike? How on earth do they fit that change into the completely static pie?

Ridiculous and defeatist.

Explain to me again how you pattern bargain thru contract extensions.

Absolutely! As the CEO of the Griswald Family Budgetary Pie, I can choose to shrink my slice and not buy that 30' fishing boat I've been eyeing, but rather increase the slice for my kids thru college savings or something else that directly benefits them. You see, there's the pilots slice and then there's company's pie. Oh how much fun it is when they take our generosity and throw it down on something for themselves. Hint, I'm not buying the company a Bertram.

You are amazingly adept at gross mischaracterizations. You might want to ask some of your Delta buds how its going over there. UALPA is is solidly in the lead of pattern bargaining this time around.

Delta pilots vote no to TA1. Munoz tries to take a page from Delta's playbook by offering a favorable pilot contract extension with a Delta 'me too' clause. Delta pilots ratify a much better TA2 with significant pay raises that results in the same for United pilots.

Poor analogy and clearly lacking much thought. A more accurate comparison would be to say my family budget is X. I want a car payment of no more than 400$ per month. Now, truth is, I can make 500$ work, but I want to pay as little as I can get away with. Same as management. They know full well that it’s gonna be more expensive than they initially propose, and it’s our job to ensure that they open the checkbook.

Apparently we passed blue and went straight to purple :p

Just to make sure, we're ONLY talking pay raises and not those other mundane contractual improvements right? If that's all that matters, let's just sign another extension. We all know that 75% of the group will go straight to Sec 3 when they first open the TA.