This is a totally rational & proportional representation of the situation.

I’m going to have to use that line in the future!

Flyguy23 said “. If women make up 5% of applicants, but 50% of new hires, youre just taking anyone that comes along qualifications be damned.

This is the issue in a nutshell. The numbers don’t add up, If United’s goal is to hire 50% minorities and women, they will undoubtably hire some less than qualified pilots if their representation is such a low percentage of the pilot pool. BTW, United did this back in the late 80’s too after they lost a lawsuit.

Speaking of numbers not adding up, the 50% number doesn’t apply to general hiring, but to entrance into the Aviate program. And as I understand it, Aviate doesn’t even guarantee a job at United. So depending on how much hiring takes place outside Aviate, and how successful the individual Aviate trainees are, that 50% number could look a lot smaller once we start talking about actual hiring at the airline.

In other words, it’s a pretty nebulous “goal”, and a lot less groundbreaking than it sounds, but 50% is a good number for promotional information & corporate self-congratulations.

I really don’t think this is the “end of safe operations at UAL” crisis that many are making it out to be. I think there are a lot of competent people in our diverse community that are capable of being trained to do this job well, and at the end of the day, United still retains full autonomy to select who ends up flying our planes. Having said that, I am absolutely in agreement that no one should be hired at this airline that does not meet proficiency requirements. I just think it’s possible to address two challenges (i.e., diversity & safety) while still maintaining that one is of greater urgency than the other.

I wish the company would TRULY pursue equality, and let us ALL decide if we want to wear a tie or not.

Seriously.....such an obvious double standard....

My wife is a DVM my daughter just got accepted to Vet school. 55% of veterinarians in the US are women. MD’s and DO’s are about 50/50 male to female ratio. If commercial aviation was a desirable job for women there’d be far more female pilots. The educational requirements and hard work needed to get into Vet school or Med school are off the charts. That isn’t holding back women from pursuing those career fields.

The main barrier holding people back from becoming airline pilots is the murky and uncertain path involved in getting to the jobs that pay a descent wage. If you go to Med school or Vet school and you graduate you’ll always have a job, you’ll have the ability to hang a shingle and run your own business. If you don’t like the practice or hospital you are working for you can move along and do better for yourself. You can set up shop anywhere you’d like to live.

Airline careers involve a huge outlay of time and or money to become qualified with ZERO guarantee that you’ll ever get a descent job. Once you do get hired by a major you have zero flexibility to move on if your airline turns into a turd. And your basing choices are set in stone and inflexible. You are away from home for long periods of time making raising a family problematic.

This career has some serious barriers to entry none of which are race or sex based. It’s a very unique lifestyle that doesn’t appeal to many people. And while the money can be good it’s not a career in which you are in control of you destiny or your financial future. You are at the whim of the airline unto which you are betrothed and then become the chattel of. If that once great airline starts to suck then your career starts to suck too no fault of your own. That’s not the case with other licensed professionals such as doctors, lawyers etc. Not having the flexibility to move on is a huge downer with this career. Other professionals can move on without having to start at the bottom of the seniority list.

Just as an example there is never a time and there has never been a time since we’ve been married that my wife doesn’t have two to three equal or better job opportunities in here back pocket. Everywhere we’ve moved chasing my aviation career she’s had a job within a day if she wanted one.

We can train anyone to be a pilot. We don’t get blessed by the pope with holy water to be christened to fly. I do not know why so many think that standards will fall. I don’t know why so many think that we have a difficult job. Technology and automation has made this job easy. I’ve seen Netflix on tablets at cruise. I doubt that anyone here on this form is Chuck Yeager. What’s the problem? The airlines know that interest in becoming a pilot is falling off among the youth and are desperate to fill seats ten to twenty years from now.

Your points about being an airline pilot being a questionable/uncertain career are completely accurate, but that doesn't explain why there are 10 times as many men as women in it.

That's extremely easy to know and understand. What is the men to women ratio for construction work? Heavy equipment operator? Police? Fire fighter?
Conversely, what is the ratio in nursing? Teaching? Childcare?
Despite what some people say, gender is not a social construct and there are very real differences between men and women and their interests.

Women can do anything they want. Most don't choose to fly. Not a single barrier to entry for those that do.

I actually think we agree on most of this, starting with the fact that more pilot candidates are needed. Having a quota, where you are filling pilot jobs with a certain number of women or minorities, makes no sense (and I feel like many people are interpreting the UA announcement as such). However, setting a goal of recruiting 50% of the entrants into a bottom up flight academy seems much more reasonable. By having a goal (not a quota), you then have reason to put resources towards achieving that goal. I agree on high school career days and the like as well, all are important.

So in your opinion, the reason that women are pilots at a 1:10 ratio to men is because there is some sort of biology that limits a woman's desire/interest in becoming a pilot, and not at all related to any societal forces at play?

Obviously you've never been in a real emergency.. Hopefully you don't actually fly passengers!

I disagree, It takes certain personality traits, skills and abilities to safely and proficiently fly an airplane. Some technical skills, some social, and a certain amount of eye hand coordination, the ability to problem solve, multi task and work under pressure are paramount. I’ve definitely seen people who are not capable of flying an airplane for multiple reasons. Mostly in primary flight training and unfortunately at least one ex flight attendant POC who got pushed through and was a notoriously incompetent F/O. Neither having been a POC or a flight attendant have anything to do with her lack of ability. But the fact that she was rushed into being an airline pilot because of her racial status without professional vetting are a huge and dangerous problem.

Not just “anyone” can be trained to be a pilot. But people of the right skills, mindset and ability can. Your example of idiots who turn on Netflix’s in cruise is scary, I’d have to ask why you aren’t calling them out on it? I won’t put up with that. People who do stuff like that should be called out and fired if they don’t immediately straighten up. And obviously “cruise” is not a high workload phase of flight.

And with that in mind I’ll say not mentally playing the “where am I going if” game in your head while in cruise wand you’re not fully engaged. I guess it takes a few what if’s to happen to you to make you start you start paying attention. If you don’t always have a plan you are out of the loop. You can’t possibly be in the loop if you’re watching Netflix’s. That means you aren’t doing your job and you need to be straightened out.

Be honest with yourself, right now this instant if your were to lose an engine at cruise do you know how to put yourself in a drift down and either class I or II know what you’ll do next? If you need to look it up you are already behind the power curve.

Automation creates a false sense of security. You have to have the mindset, training and ability to handle going from extreme boredom to holy Shizxzle instantly. Because automation lulls you into a sense of safety and comfort that is a false and dangerous place to be.

You posted while I was typing. You said what I said perfectly in two sentences.

I'm trying to think of well paying profession *anywhere* that welcomed women initially with open arms and without questions on competency, suitability, etc. Medicine. Law, C-suite, Science, Academia. Really much of the same goes for people of color, though we've of course come a long way. The hardest step is getting your foot in the door which is what this program seems to be offering.

If you've convinced it's just the nature of the "unique lifestyle" of the job, there's an ongoing discussion in the LUV section about a pilot who allegedly whipped out his c#ck in the pit bearing the same name and there were I believe a few commenters disappointed that he was turned in for what they were convinced must have been a practical joke.

The short answer is yes, although we all know it's far more complicated. There is not one single thing standing in the way of women becoming pilots other than personal choice. Men are naturally drawn to jobs such as this and there are jobs that tend to be more attractive to women. Lots of science and research to back this up.

Why is no one concerned about male equity in female dominated fields? Just curious...

I’ve had flight control failures and a pitch trim runway..a landing gear issue but nothing life threatening but all with passengers onboard. Thank goodness the airline trained us for emergencies and how to follow a QRH. Can you imagine if the airline didn’t have SOP and emergency procedures?

Thank goodness for all of the prior pilot training from private to ATP and the standards.

I would strongly disagree with that premise and would be happy to see the research, but that would be a whole different lengthy conversation.

As far as concern around male equity in female dominated fields, I don't personally look at this from an equity lens (although I'm sure many do, and United's PR blitz has chosen to frame it that way). I'm looking at it from a business perspective, there is going to be massive demand for pilots over the next 10 years, and the current pool does not meet that demand. Making inroads with under-represented groups in the pilot field (we've started steering the discussion to women, but minorities are a big part of this as well) will help improve the supply pool of pilots down the line.

But yes, if hospitals for example wanted to improve their overall nurse candidate pool, outreach to men would make a lot of sense.

My observations, first, I do not believe that we can train anyone to be a pilot. And, standards MAY fall because they have fallen in the past.

The guys below knew a lot more about flying airplanes than just pushing GD buttons and following the magenta line.

1. Captain Dave Cronin on UA 811.
2. Captain Al Haynes on UA 232.
3. Captain Christopher Behnam on UA 328.
4. Captain Scott Stopes on UA 1015.


Etc.

I demand racial and gender equality in pro sports too.. Why can't a 110 lb Asian woman be a lineman? If we're going full retard, let's go all the way everywhere.

I bet those guys did not become who they were over night and seeing that they are captains they prolly have thousands of hours of experience that they built upon. Those Aviate academy kids will be fine and will not have a need to compromise any training standards.

wholly agree with this. Nearly everyone I know could pick up and move almost anywhere and have a job without having to start at ground zero. It’s probably one of the most ******ed things in the 121 world. At least in 91 and some 135 you can transfer and negotiate a salary. My buddy just went from flying a Falcon to a Gulstream and based on his experience negotiated a much better comp package. What a funny concept!

when you tell people we don’t have that ability I get looked at like I’m insane...

Like it or not, college and med school admissions in particular have shown that in order to forcibly diversify a career field, you have to lower standards. Now, it’s completely debatable as to whether lowering standards to a degree will appreciably affect the final product, but standards are lower nonetheless. If they weren’t, the vast majority of matriculants to medical school would be Asian. Perhaps though, it would motivate the others to work harder.

https://www.aamc.org/media/6066/download

Best post of the day!! 👍

What we have is a trade..does not require a college degree. The standards will not go down because of diversity. What makes you think that standards will go down due to Aviate kids learning to fly Cessnas or more women and diverse people flying in the cockpit of passenger jets? They all have completed the training and have an ATP plus years of existence by the time they reach the airline level.

China sends their youth to America to fly then gives them jobs. Mexico the same for the most part. Planes are not falling out of the sky.

All the pilot training from private to ATP?

This has to be a joke.

Yes.. did you skip a grade to get your ATP...lol. What I’m saying is those training gates gave to be made before any of us could step foot in a 121 cockpit and all of those training progressions require passing a common standard.

CFI's with ATP's aren't competent jet pilots. One regional has had 4 runway excursions in the last 16 months, with about 1/8th the fleet size of any legacy.

Absolutely. Anyone who argues otherwise is not interested in science or truth.

Men and women are wired differently, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Sounds like that airline has a training program deficiency. Something is wrong with the culture in that school house. There have been major crashes with pilots who had thousands of hours of expertise flying jets...

Agreed.

Also agreed with your post about who stops by the cockpit to take a look.

I have noticed a more genuine appreciation of the cockpit tour from non white people and its touching.

With that said I can't get behind straight up quotas, especially for just targeting one specific job, not the whole organization.

I totally agree. My example of medical school was only presented because the data is tracked. Most anyone could do this job with the right training. My point is not in the physical accomplishment of it, but in the acceptance to it. If a goal is set to only select based on race/gender, history has shown that the initial selection will have lower standards to meet that goal.

So you end up with more qualified candidates who do not get selected because they are x race or y gender. In the case of medical school, x would be Asian and y would be female.

I think some of you need to look at the ****** Aviate Website.

It speaks directly about "The Most Direct Path to a ****** Flight Deck"

The purpose of this "school" is to teach flying that should lead to our cockpits (opps.. now I've done it!). And when you set "quotas" there is no way around the fact that some qualified people will not get in due to those quotas while some lower qualified people while get in because of the quotas.

As far as the reason why certain groups decide on a career has already been discussed by numerous individuals on this thread.
But isn't it interesting that less that a year ago people were screaming about 4000+ displacement and potential furloughs...
Months ago they were screaming about multi million dollar losses a day and Cares Act 2 and then 3 needing to be implements...

Now they have us changing the way we are suppose to look at life with regards to hiring.

I wonder, what are the stats on the Hogan test for Pass/Fail for-
Males
Non White Males
Females
Non White Females
Military vs. Civilian

So where does this lead? Do we change the test because we don't like the results?

I'm all for helping people.. it's what we, as human beings should be doing. But when you set a quota, you create more hurt than help. Just my opinion.

FS, FP & FtC
Always
Motch

PS)
3 Yrs 5 Months 19 Days-
Since TI and our union stated they were working with management to get a new UPA (at amendable date)
2 Yrs, 2 Months, 7 Days-
Since our UPA became amendable
1 Yr, 3 Months, 6 Days-
Since 2/3rds of this pilot group saw a pay raise, though about a 3rd does have the opportunity to bid into a higher seat (maybe)
{as of 7 Apr 21}

Perhaps because women are, by their nature, prone to want to have children and raise them? A flying career makes that pretty damn hard to do. Hence, why you just won’t find the number of women interested in the job as you will men. It’s not some secret sexist plan to suppress women from the cockpit, it’s just human nature. Last time I checked, there weren’t any barriers to entry into flight schools if you were a certain race/gender. Oh wait.... Now there will be if you are a white male....

Regarding the financial barriers, do minorities/women not have access to loans, or are loans only available to white males? I also can recall the numerous scholarship opportunities at UND/ERAU available ONLY to women and/or POC. Some barrier I tell ya...

WTH would you define life threatening? Wings falling off?
You are talking about some of the more serious problems we face. I'll take engine fire and failure any day of control problems...

Ive noticed more differences than just wires! 😏

Explain to me what about having XX chromasomes means you are destined to be more likely a nurse than a pilot. Absent society's influence, it should be much much closer to even.

Women are also more risk averse, have a completely different type of spatial intelligence, and are more likely to be emotional thinkers.

The same people shouting from the rooftops about "SCIENCE!!1!" really don't like science when it doesn't help them promote their agenda. Women and men are wired differently. There is nothing wrong with that.

Y'all are making me nuts about this. They are proposing more outreach programs to achieve diversity. As in, encouraging more people to do the jobs, meeting women and people of color who are pilots. You're gonna tell me promoting things like field trips, discovery flights and cockpit tours etc are too woke??

Never ONE TIME has anyone suggested that we should simply waive the performance requirements for being a pilot.