This. All things in due order. First kill this TA. Second recall and replace as appropriate. Then we can address a subsequent TA. Probably not the best idea to have the same people running point on a second TA.

RSV before 10am
 

Hey has anyone mentioned this?
If the prior to 10am RSV was to alleviate open time and also “help RSV holders by allowing extra add pay and flexibility,” why would they not simply make the agreement that RSV’s can voluntarily pick up prior to 10am for Add Pay, but the company can’t assign prior to 10am? Like that seems a lot more palatable. No losers there except for line holders who want more premium pay. But it seems fair to me, everyone should be able to pick up extra pay not just line holders

Because the company knows that wouldn't happen.. But that hasn't stopped the NC and MEC from selling that bovine excrement.

Ten characters

A day of work is a day of work. I don’t care if it’s regular flying, vacation, sick leave, training, reserve….we should have one set min day for EVERYTHING. Period. How many other industries tell their employees that vacation days are worth less than work days? It’s ridiculous. I get paid less when I go to training then when I fly the line? If I go to training and my partner is a reserve doing a seat fill in, they are making 5 hours a day and I am only making 3.25??? and it’s MY training event??? ****??? This needs to be #1 on the list.

1. 20% raise on DOS, then 5% each year

2. FSB gone and all reserve days off are HDOs (including global)

3. Min 5 hours a day for everything (trips, vacation, reserve, training)

4. Max scheduled reserve 15 days a month at 75 hour guarantee

5. Me too clause where our rates must be at least 5% higher than whatever is negotiated by AA and DAL during the life of the contract.

If they want things like reserve early pickups on day 1, make it optional with add pay. If they want reserves to go down to 12 days off, make the extra 3 days optional with a higher guarantee. The company can include all the things they want, just make it OPTIONAL WITH ADD PAY. People will jump on it if and when it works for them.

But the #1 thing we need to focus on imo, is RESERVE COVERAGE. It affects everyone, both line holders and reserves. The company cannot continue to have the ability to change coverage numbers to whatever they want, whenever they want. If we want to improve our QOL, it has to start there.

I agree with almost everything that you said. I would add that the min day should go up (Delta’s is 5:15/day average). Our five hours has been stagnant since the JCBA at least. Reserves shouldn’t have a blanket guarantee. That guarantee should be divided into credit per day, and a reserve pilot should accrue that credit per day or a trip whichever is greater.

As for the before 10:00 thing…. If the Company wants it so bad, then pony up!!! Give the reserve pilot a choice. Either take the add pay, or if you commute, then you get POS and a hotel.

Since they like to play Johnny f*ck around and delay new contracts by years. There needs to be a penalty for being late on contracts. We lose every single time. I'm not against making it flexible enough for the company to make money during highs and lows, but the games must end repeatedly dragging new contracts out. The Munoz mentality of positive labor relations has greater affects on both labor peosuctivity and customer satisfaction than this horse manure.

+1
Perfect

Sick leave accrual is substandard too. Add that to the list.

So here’s an interesting tidbit from the past when DeltaS had their TA in 2015 that failed.

DELTA TA – The DAL MEC accepted a tentative agreement (TA) by a senatorial vote of 11-8. The TA is now out for DAL membership ratification. Voting ends and the results will be disclosed on July 10.



After weighing the pros and cons of the TA, it is difficult to say if it actually moves the bar any higher. Instead, a compelling argument can be made that the bar will be lowered because the TA is rife with concessions in quality of life (QOL), healthcare, and possibly even job security. It might be a reasonable agreement if just the profit sharing formula was traded for higher hourly rates, but it is self-evident that far more than that was sold.



During this time of unprecedented airline profitability, it is puzzling why the DAL MEC opened early to only settle for a cost-neutral contract at best. There are valid arguments about the time value of money. However, these can be countered with equally valid arguments on the value of job security and QOL. The UAL MEC aims to get a briefing from the DAL Negotiating Committee if the TA passes membership ratification.

This is what our MEC Vice-Chairman said, when he was the Council 34 Vice-Chairman.

I’ll sit reserve at 0600….in TPA or MCO! If the next TA is to pass, just require them to open a MCO domicile, 99% yes 😂.

Might not be so bad if we actually go to 15 reserve days. But if they actually "pony up" then it can be optional. There's no way a 12/13 day off guy should be checking in and possibly commuting on days off.

Careful about negotiating specifics on this board.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Somebody has to. The MEC certainly is not.

Consider it polling.

Seriously?

There is negative value in the NC and Brad Hunnewell's institutional knowledge. We need pilots who have flown the line for a long time on the NC, not career cube workers.

Absolutely. In this thread I’ve seen several very specific wants noted. You never want them to know your specific price. The overall dissatisfaction is healthy, but be cautious/quiet about your specific wants…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Your point of view is exactly why we ended up with this TA. I have zero problems with transparency on what we demand.

They actually gave up their rolling sick bank in that TA. My feeling was that the DAL Pilots knew that value by comparing what we lack at UAL. Also, political shift from DAL to NWA at that time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

TA2
 

Actually, my name is on the current contract LoL. Not this one. And I’m a solid NO vote.

Im just telling you that it’s never good when Pilots directly negotiate with Management. You don’t show the car salesman your W-2


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Ponies. Motorcycles. Stuffed Unicorns in S,M,L and XL sizes. NO soy ingredients in any of the crew meals. Beards for all the genders. No hair limit for all the genders. No tattoo restrictions save maybe the teardrop face tattoos. Tie becomes optional. No hats. An authorized intermediate jacket to wear. Trench coat is overkill for a spring rain in ORD.

TA2
 

I honestly hope that you can achieve all of that. I realize that everyone, around here is mad. But you should replace leadership, not proven negotiating practice. That’s where anger can becomes counterproductive…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I understand what you're saying but there is far too much anger from the rank and file at this point and if TA2 misses the mark, things will get ugly fast.

Then we need to find a few competent guys who can keep it together. Maybe some non political SME’s. No retread reps


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

​​​​​​Well fadec demands 20% DOS, full backpay, 5% annual raise in perpetuity, no scope give, no PUPs, no reassignment changes, 15 hour call-out starting at 0000, no FSB, PS commute for all, $57 check airmen override on all flights, emotional support animals for instructors. Fadec gives 0500 voluntary reserve pickup for +5 hrs add pay in exchange for all PPU being 100%. Fadec also requires Delta sick time, no doctor notes, delta LTD, 19% retirement, UPS pensions, and first class on all company required travel. He also requires 8 weeks of paid leave for pregnancy and death in the immediate family beginning at 6 weeks gestation, bereavement fare discounts for extended family, and fertility treatments covered in healthcare. Fadec also mandates that the company honor the sabbath and keep it holy, whether Saturday or Sunday according to each faith, and if an anti-theist be employed then he shall honor and receive mammon on his chosen day.

This is merely the convex hull of time honored work rules and existing contracts. Take away from it and better ideas protrude. An industry leading contract should lead on all points.

I'd still vote No. Not one mention of a motorcycle or a pony or beards in uniform.

No Tumi suitcase?

Ben-

For the record.....We sit in the same neighborhood of seniority, especially from the Pre-Merge Pedigree......That said, A LOT of the said concerns above have germane merit on this thread.

The voice's speak, and so does the decent of the current TA. To try and discourage/stifle any disaccord is as much of general dereliction as those who crafted/voted "YES" on this "turd".

You once sat in such an LEC IAH. If you can articulate the "YES" mentality as your LEC did, would LOVE to hear it. PLEASE do NOT attempt to quell any/all opinions of those who have the rightful to oppose this extremely subpar TA.......Anything otherwise in disingenuous on your part as a former leader in your current LEC, let alone example going forward during this pivotal time........Regards......Another Line Pilot..

its only a negotiation if we state a price. Nothing wrong with staying our wants.

i was mesmerized how far off the NC apparently is from what folks really value.

Thanks. You and Stuttering Brad can take your
“No negotiation in public”
and
”That’s going to dilute seniority”
and stick them with the TA
F*ing Ridiculous

TA2
 

Lotsa ground covered there. I’m in absolute disagreement with those whom voted yes at the MEC level. Haven’t spoken with either yet, so I haven’t grabbed my torches and pitchforks yet.

IMHO, the only way to make this right is a vast leadership change in order fix the obvious disconnect which has occurred. Sometimes, negotiators can get too close to the table, if you know what I mean, but I just haven’t seen anything from the LEC Reps or NC that leads me to believe and willful harm was intended. In any case, intent is currently irrelevant.

I understand the frustration, but just deem it more effective to replace and repair without negotiating in public. I also don’t feel the need for revenge; reprimand yes.

Also, most Pilots are middle of the road and reasonable folks. I’m not for this TA, but optics matter. The more b@tsh!T crazy we look, the better the sales job appears.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

there probably was a lot of escalation of commitment and/or Stockholm syndrome at the NC/MEC level.

It seems that they tried to be data driven but got all myopic in the approach. For example they claimed that they looked at PDRs to guide the discussion. I bet that most PDRs are about the annoying operational drama and hardly about the big picture QoL issues.

of course polling could have fixed that but I guess they just knew what we wanted - not.

I completely agree. Godwilling the next TA will make the general public surprised at what we’re demanding. I would prefer to be viewed as adults demanding an inflation adjusted wage, not the Detroit auto workers sabotaging their future prospects.

This is such BS that has been pushed by ALPA because it provides them with more accountability. If the CEO of AA can legally announce his offer to the whole world, we can discuss this as much as we like. Don’t be bullied into thinking otherwise.

Bullied? Come on Man?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm a line pilot and I approve this post.

UALPA appears to have become infested with seagulls who haven't flown a full year's line in more than a decade. It's time to STOP doing business the way that seagulls recommend because that obviously isn't working.

Wonder what Jay Pierce is up to? Seems like the lUal Union people are all screwed up, what have we got to lose?

MEC: We need to cancel the pilots' vote so we can poll the pilots...

At least if we negotiated in public alpa maybe aware of our desires