Anybody leave SWA for UA? If so, why?
 

Looking to assess some options; I’ll be a commuter for life. I have a CJO with SWA, and an interview with UA. Anybody in here work for both, that can share why they stayed/left SWA for UA?

From where will you commute?

You don't have options until you have a CJO from United. Go to SWA. Go to the interview at UAL. Sometime several months down the road, if UAL offers you a class date, then is when you have a decision to make.

But generally, starting from square one and apples to apples, legacy > LCC/ULCC in terms of career income and benefits.

Or maybe you go to SWA and like it and decide to stay.

Don't box yourself into a corner before all the options have even unfolded.

If you look at my original post, I’m reaching out to people to see if they left SWA for UA, and what the reasons were. If you can provide insight into that, that would be helpful.

Eugene. I’ve commuted for the last 3 years, to explain my experience with commuting options.

Well, looks to me like the commute should not swing your decision strongly either way… three flights today to SFO and three to OAK. I’d say getting to OAK would be a tad easier since it is less likely to have flow control. Can’t believe I’m saying this, but have you considered Alaska? Ten flights today to SEA and drivable to boot. Guess it depends on what sort of flying you think you’d enjoy more.

I chose United over southwest because I didn’t want to wait 8 years to upgrade, I didn’t want to be locked into the 73 for life, and I didn’t want to be flying 4 legs a day, but maybe that’s not a turn off for you. Focus on nailing the interview and then you can worry about the tough choice.

The people I know who’ve picked UA over SWA lately have been younger (25-35 years left in their career) and able to afford a riskier career with greater upside in terms of diversity of aircraft and flying. They’ve also mostly been east coast and UA bases were the same distance or closer than. SWA bases with a greater spread between upgrades at UA (<5 yrears) and SWA (>= 10 years) on the east coast.

i do know some who went to SWA and stayed there. #1 priority seemed to be base, #2 QOL. (17 days off right away vs 12-13 at UA).

In your case I’d say go to whoever gives you the first class date, then go to Delta for the SEA base. If you want WB flying go to UA after SWA while you wait for DAL. That way if DAL never calls you still have quick upgrades on the 73 and the ability to do widebody flying.

WN does operate into Eugene. That being said, will we always? It’s never a guarantee. OAK, LAX, LAS bases are on the junior side for now.

SFO CA upgrades are going at a year here, if you have the TIME AND EXPERIENCE, but you can’t choose a job based on that…
What do you want out of your career? Some want only money, some want schedule flexibility, some want to fly “big jets international”, and other’s WANT THE CHANCE TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS OVER THE COURSE OF THEIR CAREER…..THAT ONLY UNITED OFFERS - in such a huge variety!
BUT, as you’ve heard on here …. gotta get to CJO first and then decide!

Good luck!

Can you elaborate on "riskier career?" I have CJOs from UA and WN (30 y/o) and plan on moving to the DC area (live in-base for either). I am leaning toward WN primarily for the reason that I do not think UA's 500+ aircraft on order will be friendly to its balance sheet. If/when the next pandemic/worldwide calamity rolls around, I think that WN will be best insulated and prepared among the big 4 passenger airlines in the US. Is a single fleet type and lengthier upgrade worth the trade-off for perceived corporate stability? I don't know.

Great input from everybody. It’s nice hearing a lot of the same reasons that I have built mentally, I just needed to make sure I wasn’t missing something as an outsider looking in.

Do not underestimate what being stuck in the Guppy for decades (the MAXes are new and will have a 20-25 year lifespan at SWA) and flying on average three legs a day will do to your enjoyment of the job.

Let me be frank, after 16.5 years on the damn thing, I’m thoroughly over it and especially thoroughly over the SWA flying.

I can’t believe this is even a question in people’s minds. 🤦‍♂️

Totally. I was telling my FO last trip (I’m a 737 CA) that if we were at SW you’d better get used to it, as that’d be your career.

I’m downgrading to 787 FO in October because I only want one leg a day with long overnights. Maybe I’ll come back as a 737 CA or maybe I’ll just wait it out and upgrade on the WB.

Options and variety are good. Flying the 737 for a career would give me mental problems.

While I gree with your logic let's not forget that United has the worst reserve rules of any major and probably one of the worst work rules as well. The nature of widebody flying is United's saving grace. Otherwise, if you don't see yourself flying on the global fleet, SW is the better choice in my opinion.

“Riskier career?”

United may have $42B in debt and lease obligations, but it has over $70B in gross assets, including over $18B cash on hand. Also United has generated over $3B in net cash flow in Q1 and Q2 of 2022. United is in a very strong position for an airline. Far more net equity than almost every other airline. United also announced they will be using cash to pay for the planes going forward using its strong cash flow. You can be a 737 Captain as soon as you get 1 year on the property and 500 hours. Or you can be a 777 or 787 FO as a new hire. United isn’t going anywhere, its part of an oligopoly, and except for Covid, its has been profitable every year since 2009.

Also this is the strongest management team we have had in the last 30 years. Whatever happened in the past (furloughs from 9/11 and the 2008 Financial crisis) is the past. Any pilot hired today will likely have 8,000 pilots junior to them by 2028.

UA under Kirby is trying to grow, a lot. Both Domestically, and internationally There’s risk in that. SWA is content to grow domestically at ~2% a year, with the same aircraft.

UA has a history of hiring till furlough until recently, and SWA had a history of trying to not furlough until recently.

If you’re 30 now at UA there’s a chance you’ll be a 737 Captain in DC probably by the time you’re 35 and have taken a spin on the 320, 756 and 787 along the way. If you’re 30 now at SWA you might be a Captain around the time you turn 45 in BWI. You’ll have 15-17 days off the whole time until then and after flying 4 legs a day.

You’ve got a 35 year career… If you’re within driving distance to the DC area airports, I’d probably go to UA over SWA. 2/3 of the folks I know in similar position recently have. No one has regretted the one they picked though. Good problem to have.

It’s still hard to fathom the enormity of opportunity for folks applying in this day. Must be stressful applying to everyone, and getting calls from everyone! Amazing how the game has changed in such a short time.

Worst work rules?? You are clueless.

How many other majors can roll you into your day off an unlimited amount of times?

how many other majors only give you only 6 hard days off on reserve?

How many other majors can arbitrarily increase the number of reserves and required reserves, taking away lines and making it impossible to drop a single trip?

Hotel language is good. Soft pay is pretty good. Crew meals/ground transportation/hotel walk ability is good.

Days off/day off protection is abysmal and frankly no amount of add pay makes up for having plans on my day off robbed for company convenience. We have a ton of awesome little things for events that either rarely happen (hotel walks) or aren’t really worth a ton of money (dry cleaning), but we have very poor protections for our schedule and for our home lives.

I told a friend at delta about global reserve and they looked at me like I was insane. Then I told them about how you can get reassigned until 11:59 on a day off even if the company can get you back to base and I thought their head was going to explode. There is no reason getting an EDCT on your last day, misconnecting for your final turn, should allow the company to pull you off your last turn and assign you an overnight.

I shouldn’t have to bid for an extra day off before my plans just in case the company decides that their inability to staff is my problem and they decide to rob my day off so I can cover an inefficient PIT overnight for an extra 5 hours of pay.

Exactly! Don't forget field standby... I am actually surprised just how many United pilots are not aware how bad some of the bits of the contract are, even compared to the regionals.
Over half of United pilots have less than 14 days off. That's not an industry standard...

Hopefully the MEC and lawyers dive into more QOL items for their “contract comparison” pieces than just cherry picking items that make the TUMI TA look decent. However, a good leadership group would have done that years ago and seen how far we lag behind our peers and even a lot of regionals before sending the NC to the table. Instead, due to the disconnect with the pilot group, they thought sprinkling some add pay on the problem would get us to eat it up. My days at home and ability to manipulate my schedule are more important than money and we have neither when forced into the 100 hour buffer and the company can steal days off on their terms.

I think you're the one that clueless. Airport standby is pretty much the worst of them all.

Oh. I'm sorry I didn't answer your exact question the way you wanted it answered. Lol.

Welcome to APC.

Good luck with your decision.

That's what my United friends were told in 2000 before their first furlough, and in 2007 before their second furlough. Lol.

Remind me, how many months passed between the time they stopped hiring and started furloughing both times? 2? 3?

I thought that when I left my regional to come to United reserve would be better. I was wrong.

Exactly.

And, on top of the mind-numbing repetitiveness of the flying, it’s also frustrating that so many of the people I fly with seem to be completely shut down to even attempting to do much of anything about trying to improve what can be improved. It’s like mass Stockholm Syndrome. I feel like I’m being gaslighted all day long. Am I crazy for seeing it like that or are they? It feels like I might be living on Shutter Island.

THis is not 2000 or 2007. We didn’t have unfilled Captain bids back then. We also didn’t have new hires getting WB FO. Delta, United and American all had furloughs in the last 20 years. I guess nobody should go there because there is a chance they might furlough in the future?

People can go where they want. Bottom line is that if someone has any doubt that United is a great airline to work for as a pilot, they shouldn’t even apply to interview.

The reason why United has unfilled Captain vacancies is because reserve here is a special form of torture. I am willing to bet that Southwest doesn't have Captains that are in bottom 10 percent.

I don't think we have captains in the bottom 40 percent....

Look at the last vacancy bid. We have people holding 737 Captain with 12,500 seniority. That is less than 10 percent.

At WN. ...

Oh... Got it 👍

If I remember correctly 60% is pretty much the floor for upgrades at SWA. I’m at 67% and 450 away from junior, so it’s pretty close.

If we (United) had only 737s you’d see that seniority trend higher. At some point in your life it’s time to make money regardless of work rules. Kids, mortgage, etc,

While our work rules leave a lot to be desired, I don’t think those are the primary driver of the junior upgrades.

The benefit of United is you can make 85%(!!) of the 737 CA pay rate by being lazy and more senior as a WB FO. There is no need to upgrade until it ticks all your boxes. Some never upgrade on the NB and just wait until they can jump the trash bag on the WB.

As I mentioned earlier, I’m downgrading to WB FO. Even as a line holding 737 CA, I’m working weekends with short overnights and long days. Making 85% of the CA pay rate to have Christmas off it too good of a deal to pass up.