Do I take the upgrade?
 

Hello- I received my CJO last week. Pending this TA passes as expected and they offer me the upgrade what would my schedule and QOL look like? My background is 20 years of military flying so I’m used to missing holidays and weekends. Do I just rip the bandaid off and jump in? Or is that horrible idea? My number one priority is to be based out of DCA/IAD. Thanks!

You’ve spent 20 years being deployed and missing out on time with your family. You also have a pension that resolves many of the pay discrepancies between the seats. Given the chance, bid right seat on the NB of your choice, gain seniority and control of your schedule, and enjoy time spent with those you care about. This is just a job, and different aircraft and upgrades will still be available when you decide that the time and seniority is right.

the company won’t be able to offer upgrade to a new hire until sometime next summer.

they have said they can’t get the programming complete for all the new reserve rules until August.

You will be hired as an FO and will be able to make the upgrade choice sometime next fall. Don’t stress

I guess what I meant was I feel any schedule is better than what I’ve been used to in the military. Would that not be the case? Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.

I wouldn’t… if goal is DC then bid 737, 320 or 756.

The schedule of a bottom seniority captain might be better than what you had in the military, but the schedule of a FO who is gaining relative seniority will far exceed that. Anyone taking or being assigned new hire captain slots will be on reserve for a long time while others bid on top of them. New hire FO’s are quickly gaining relative seniority, don’t spend very long on reserve, and are gaining more control of their schedules. Slow down, maximize time at home with those you care about, and enjoy the ride.

As already mentioned though, you won’t have to worry about being assigned a captain slot. It won’t be a thing for a while yet.

This is incorrect, and has been corrected many times. They can force new hires into captain as soon as the TA passes. The new hires cannot START CAPTAIN TRAINING until the new reserve rules are implemented. The new hires need 350 hours in type and complete the probation checkride. This will conveniently coincide to be about August 2024 when we will see the first new hire captains meet this requirement.

I feel most people never made it passed section 3 and retro when looking at the TA.

you want to point to that exact language in the LOA?

Watch the roadshow video/town hall. Ask any FACT team member or rep.

LOA 23-01

Accelerated Captain Upgrade Training of Pilots who Qualify for Upgrade under Section 8I-1-b shall not be permitted until the following provisions of UPA23 have been implemented:

Do you know when they plan on retiring the 756? I feel like I read on here not to bid it for that reason. Thanks.

Last half of the decade. They’ve made it pretty nebulous. Probably gone by 2030. Subject to market forces. They’re printing money on the 767’s which is why they’re repairing the crinkled one. Along with the fact that our growth is constrained by airframes at this point. Only reason not to bid it imo is it will probably be relatively stagnant compared to the Airbus/737.

Not how I read that but I can see how it is interpreted. Either way no one is moving to the CA seat as a new hire until next fall.

Or……you can fly a great airplane and then get displaced.

you get displaced you get to go anywhere your seniority can hold with no seat lock. Displacements are pretty powerful.

get displaced and go to NB Captain and after 6 months you hate it? Bud back to FO instead of waiting 2+ years

A you’re not qualified for the CA upgrade
B the company can’t do it until all contract sections are implemented.

Wow. Thanks for that insight!

Not exactly. Couldn’t be offered next week due to 8-D-6. At the very earliest it would be after the next vacancy closes.

Right, I meant assuming all qualifying conditions were meant. I was mostly just trying to correct people constantly saying the company can't do anything until August 2024, which has been fact checked dozens of times.

Working 16-18 days/month. Likely flying near 117 max. 90 hrs * 2nd year captain rate * 12
working pretty much every weekend/holiday/etc. But making $$$
Possiblity that new holiday add pay displaces reserves ... but no guarantee

Dang. For how long would I have to embrace the suck? Does seniority move far slower?

ballpark 10 years to a line probably. Although after 2 years you could bail back to NBFO (or WBFO) as desired.
5+ years you could probably hold weekday reserve.

It’s not like that on reserve, but that is a junior lineholder schedule.

Not entirely accurate. It is 25 months after meeting captain requirements. So in total probably about 3 years from initial indoc to change BES.

Then once you change you'll be in a 24 to 36 month bidding freeze depending if you changed bases or not and can only upgrade on that fleet in that time.

System seniority is what determines vacancy awards and relative seniority within base/equipment/seat (BES). You are given a system number on day one. Relative seniority determines your QOL. The more senior you are in your BES, the better trips you get, better vacations, better days off etc. Someone getting a NBCA award as a new hire would be super junior for years while senior pilots with lower seniority numbers bid on top of them. Most people don’t bid captain vacancies until they can do it at the seniority of their choosing, and every pilot already on the list when you show up will be forever be senior to you. Someone getting NBFO will gain relative seniority much quicker and enjoy a higher quality of life, although with a lower pay rate than a NBCA of the same seniority. NBFO is the lowest pay grade that we have and very few people will bid on top of you, especially on the 320/737 fleets. NBCA is much more senior and your relative seniority won’t move much for years due to others bidding over you.

Thank you. Very informative. Any insight on how long for WBFO at IAD? And what that schedule would look like?

I don’t know very much about IAD, but my advice would be to gain relative seniority as fast as you can, and that will happen on the 320/737. Eventually the music will stop and seniority progression will grind to a halt. Being junior in a senior seat is not where you want to be. Personally, I stayed a 737 FO until my kids went off to college. I was super senior in my seat and had a great QOL. I may have left money on the table, but I was home for every holiday, every family event, I flew the trips that I wanted and when I wanted, and usually got first pick on vacation bidding. I then bid WBFO and then NBCA with the seniority to avoid trips that I didn’t want to fly and have pretty good control over my schedule. If I had it to do over I wouldn’t change a thing. All the money in the world won’t buy back time away from your family. Assuming that you retired from the military, you have a pension to make up for the difference in pay between CA and FO. Your focus from this point on should not be to have a schedule and life that is slightly better than what you had before, it should be focused on what is the best possible life moving forward from your first day of class.

That’s the point.. if it’s not covered in the implementation LOA it takes effect DOS.. the specific paragraph about offering the slots to new hires is not mentioned in the LOA, only the part where they can start training is.. therefore they can offer new hires any unfilled CA vacancies effective DOS..

now they still have to to release all freezes before they can offer them to new hires however.

if you do not have any 121 time you would not be eligible for a captain vacancy until you meet the FAR requirements anyway.

Have seat locks been release per 8-D-6 and every probationary pilots been offered the upgrade? There are currently zero captain slots in inventory to be offered to a new hire until post ratification another vacancy bid and then going though the unfilled process. If they do use the provision for new hire pilots by the end of the year, they will be eligible for a bump per the UPA before the Aug 24 bid period.

Yeah... this was in multiple threads. This cannot happen at the earliest until the next vacancy closes and only if 8-D-6 is offered. So, for those with a class date in the near term and wondering about this, you will not be assigned a NB CA position in BI.

MOP, how's it going? The answer is in the implementation schedule. And confirmed by the FACT Team. They can't start training (left seat training) until AUG 24 at the earliest. This restriction doesn't prevent the positions from showing up in a drop prior to that.

yep see that now…..didn’t read it that way so never asked the question. Thanks