Council 34 S/T Report, 7/6/2010
07-15-2010, 09:21 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: CE-560XL
Posts: 127
I read the history of the United Pilots.
A few years ago one handed me a a copy of an article entitled "From Wooden Wings", written by a UA pilot by the name of Pat Palazzolo. Everything I had observed in the united pilots squared with that article. I used to think those guys were 10 feet tall. What happened?
They now appear to me to be a bunch of wimps. I'm told they are even suing each other over how some bundle of cash was distributed. (where did that come from?)
As I see them in airports throughout the country I see a beaten bunch of losers. Nome of them seem to even be able to wear their uniform in a professional manner.
Some wear hats, some do not. Some sear leather jackets that make them look like regional pilots, some don't wear jackets at all.
So what gives?
Any respect they used to command is long gone.
If they need role models they can look at the Spirit pilots. Now there is a group than commands respect.
Just one pilot's view......
Flightbag
A few years ago one handed me a a copy of an article entitled "From Wooden Wings", written by a UA pilot by the name of Pat Palazzolo. Everything I had observed in the united pilots squared with that article. I used to think those guys were 10 feet tall. What happened?
They now appear to me to be a bunch of wimps. I'm told they are even suing each other over how some bundle of cash was distributed. (where did that come from?)
As I see them in airports throughout the country I see a beaten bunch of losers. Nome of them seem to even be able to wear their uniform in a professional manner.
Some wear hats, some do not. Some sear leather jackets that make them look like regional pilots, some don't wear jackets at all.
So what gives?
Any respect they used to command is long gone.
If they need role models they can look at the Spirit pilots. Now there is a group than commands respect.
Just one pilot's view......
Flightbag
07-18-2010, 04:59 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,709
Some wear hats, some do not. Some sear leather jackets that make them look like regional pilots, some don't wear jackets at all.
So what gives?
So what gives?
So please let me ask you this, when you see Southwest, American, or Lufthansa crews walking through the terminal in their leather jackets many without hats do you see them as bunch of "beaten losers" too? Or do you have a bone to pick with UAL pilots?
07-18-2010, 10:49 PM
#23
Not retiring avatar
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: 777 CAP
Posts: 768
UAL Negotiating Committee Report
July 16, 2010
Negotiations: So, how’s it going?
The Joint Negotiating Committee (JNC) of the Continental and United pilots has been attempting to secure a Transition and Process Agreement with the managements of Continental and United Airlines since shortly after the merger was announced. For the two airlines to recognize the full value of their merger, they must become one airline. After that point, it will be one company with one group of employees flying its passengers over its route structure. The critical step is getting from two airlines to one airline operated by one management. The two managements have negotiated their merger agreements between themselves, resolving most of their issues. The pilots are attempting to negotiate their agreements with the management teams.A Transition and Process Agreement should be as simple as it sounds. To get from two airlines and two pilot groups to one, there must be a transition. Despite public comments from both airlines’ managements that they want to complete this merger as soon as possible, the JNCs made up of both the Continental and United pilots realize the need for a Transition and Process Agreement in the event of a not so quick merger. America West and US Airways are still living under their Transition Agreements five years after their announced merger. Delta pilots secured a Transition Agreement that was never enacted because their merger and their JCBA were completed so quickly. While the United and Continental pilots currently operate under their individual contracts (CBAs), the goal is to have one common contract for the purpose of the merger; however, to bridge the time between now and the JCBA, a Transition Agreement is required. The Continental pilots have certain provisions in their contract that deal specifically with mergers. This Part 7 of Section 1 of the Continental contract contains protection from furlough “effective on the date of signing of such agreement and ending no earlier than the date one year after the operations of the Company and the acquired carrier are merged.” As a result, the Continental pilots have furlough protections while the United pilots have no such protections in their contract. Further, the Continental pilots’ CBA states, In each consecutive calendar quarter during separate operations, the ratios of block hours of (1) Company flying scheduled to be flown on single-aisle aircraft to block hours of the other carrier scheduled to be flown on single-aisle aircraft and (2) Company flying scheduled to be flown on twin-aisle aircraft to block hours of the other carrier scheduled to be flown on twin-aisle aircraft will in each case equal or exceed the same ratios determined for the same three (3) month period during the twelve (12) consecutive calendar months immediately prior to the closing of such Transaction.This means Continental Airlines is not allowed to shrink compared to the other airline in either twin-aisle or single-aisle block hours. The United pilots have no such protections in their contract. Absent a Transition Agreement, United would be allowed to furlough pilots while Continental recalls its furloughees and begins hiring anew. Absent a Transition Agreement, United would be allowed to shrink unrestricted while Continental accepts new aircraft and grows. Despite the fact that all the United and Continental pilots will eventually work for the same airline, there currently exists, due to the differences in each carrier’s contract, the potential for disparate treatment between the two pilot groups during the transition into a single air carrier. A goal of the Transition Agreement is to minimize this potential. The Process part of the Agreement defines the methodology of securing a Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA) for the two pilot groups. Where do the parties meet, when, and how often? What is the negotiating protocol? What happens if the talks break down or if there is a dispute? These are all logical questions, but absent a Transition and Process Agreement, they would remain unanswered. Despite the managements of the two airlines ending talks on June 24, there continues to be dialogue between the managements and their respective Pilot JNCs. Any breaks in negotiations, while disappointing, should not by themselves be a cause for alarm. Remember that these negotiations are quadrilateral. Not only is the United pilots JNC negotiating with United Airlines, it is also negotiating with Continental Airlines and with the Continental pilots JNC. The two companies have to negotiate between themselves before negotiating with us. It is an intricate process but is not insuperable. While the process for completing the Transition and Process Agreement, and subsequently for the JCBA, has been delayed, there is no reason to believe that these agreements cannot be reached. The JNC is continuing its work toward crafting a JCBA and stands ready to re-engage with the two companies.
Fraternally,Captain Jay Heppner UAL-MEC Negotiating Committee Chairman
Fraternally,Captain Jay Heppner UAL-MEC Negotiating Committee Chairman
The company has no motivation or legal obligation to sign a transition agreement. So why would they? It seems that this agreement is only essintial for one out of four groups - UAL Pilots. When has this management team done anything for us that they did not have to? And why would they give up the ability to use one pilot contract vs. another?
PLEASE nobody answer, "synergies"!
This management thinks synergy is beating every last drop of energy from its employees.
07-19-2010, 09:23 AM
#24
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
Posts: 2,086
This past Thursday morning, I was passing through the IAH crew lounge where one of CAL ALPA's P2P Reps had a propaganda table set up. In the short conversation I had with him, he expressed that the "company" had just contacted CAL ALPA that week (around the 12th or 13th) wanting to return 'to the table' to resume 'talks'. This was news to me, as of a week and a half prior to that, the 'company' had up & walked away.
What have the UAL guys/gals heard over in your camp regarding a 'return to talks'??? DON'T get me wrong, I am not overly optimistic, but talking is better than no talking at all
What have the UAL guys/gals heard over in your camp regarding a 'return to talks'??? DON'T get me wrong, I am not overly optimistic, but talking is better than no talking at all
07-19-2010, 10:47 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: B777 Capt
Posts: 844
Originally Posted by SoCalGuy
What have the UAL guys/gals heard over in your camp regarding a 'return to talks'??? DON'T get me wrong, I am not overly optimistic, but talking is better than no talking at all
L
07-19-2010, 01:15 PM
#26
Recommend Retention
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Bigfoot
Posts: 1,077
I heard the same thing at CAL as well - that talks regarding the transition agreement were resuming. I've also heard other RUMORS this last week on the line as well, which I have no possible way of validating. They are:
1.) The August system bid will show recalls of remaining CAL furloughees and hiring and should be out in approx. 2-3 weeks
2.) A large # (~200) of pilots have put in for retirement in the late fall of this year
3.) The 787 will be operated as a separate fleet but a common type
4.) Vacancies that open from a need to hire will be offered to furloughed UAL pilots (insert 'bird in the hand' quote here)
5.) SLI talks are 'progressing'
Anyone else hearing much? Sorry for the thread drift. Hope we get EVERYONE (yes, UAL too) back soon.
1.) The August system bid will show recalls of remaining CAL furloughees and hiring and should be out in approx. 2-3 weeks
2.) A large # (~200) of pilots have put in for retirement in the late fall of this year
3.) The 787 will be operated as a separate fleet but a common type
4.) Vacancies that open from a need to hire will be offered to furloughed UAL pilots (insert 'bird in the hand' quote here)
5.) SLI talks are 'progressing'
Anyone else hearing much? Sorry for the thread drift. Hope we get EVERYONE (yes, UAL too) back soon.
07-19-2010, 01:56 PM
#27
APC co-founder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by Monkeyfly
The company has no motivation or legal obligation to sign a transition agreement. So why would they? It seems that this agreement is only essintial for one out of four groups - UAL Pilots. When has this management team done anything for us that they did not have to? And why would they give up the ability to use one pilot contract .
This management thinks synergy is beating every last drop of energy from its employees.
This management thinks synergy is beating every last drop of energy from its employees.
In brief, the transition agreement is the price of admission for management to get to the JCBA negotiations, (which is the price of admission to get to the SLI).
It's great to see both MECs standing firm on this even though, as you pointed out, this is a UAL MEC issue. Starting out as a unified group will pay huge dividends down the road.
07-19-2010, 02:43 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 165
Originally Posted by SoCalGuy
This past Thursday morning, I was passing through the IAH crew lounge where one of CAL ALPA's P2P Reps had a propaganda table set up. In the short conversation I had with him, he expressed that the "company" had just contacted CAL ALPA that week (around the 12th or 13th) wanting to return 'to the table' to resume 'talks'. This was news to me, as of a week and a half prior to that, the 'company' had up & walked away.
What have the UAL guys/gals heard over in your camp regarding a 'return to talks'??? DON'T get me wrong, I am not overly optimistic, but talking is better than no talking at all
What have the UAL guys/gals heard over in your camp regarding a 'return to talks'??? DON'T get me wrong, I am not overly optimistic, but talking is better than no talking at all
07-19-2010, 07:37 PM
#29
Need More Callouts
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Unbridled Enthusiasm
Posts: 2,143
Originally Posted by iahflyr
UAL and CAL pilots do not need an industry leading contract to make this merger a success. Don't get me wrong, there should be contract improvements over the current contracts, but even if it turns out to be Delta -1%, there is still so much good for the entire pilot profession (UAL/CAL pilots and others) that will be realized.
Having one less major airline reduces cutthroat competition. Fares go up, revenue goes up, airlines can actually make money. When airlines make money, pilots benefit (See FedEx/UPS contracts)
United will be the largest airline in the world. United's west coast presence with CAL's east coast presence. United's Asia routes with CAL's europe routes. United's best frequent flier mile program. Brand recognition. Efficiencies created by operating as one company and not two separate company. The benefits go on and on.
There has been all this talk of a "national seniority list." It will never happen, but the concept of a national seniority list is that there aren't a million different airline seniority lists that you'll have to start at the bottom of if you start at a new airline. If we reduce the number of major airlines, the seniority lists at those respective airlines get bigger, essentially creating one of a few "national seniority lists." Fewer airlines is better for pilots.
So yes, there should be contract improvements. But even if the contract is not industry leading, but industry top, this merger will be good for all pilots (UAL, CAL, and everyone in the profession).
Having one less major airline reduces cutthroat competition. Fares go up, revenue goes up, airlines can actually make money. When airlines make money, pilots benefit (See FedEx/UPS contracts)
United will be the largest airline in the world. United's west coast presence with CAL's east coast presence. United's Asia routes with CAL's europe routes. United's best frequent flier mile program. Brand recognition. Efficiencies created by operating as one company and not two separate company. The benefits go on and on.
There has been all this talk of a "national seniority list." It will never happen, but the concept of a national seniority list is that there aren't a million different airline seniority lists that you'll have to start at the bottom of if you start at a new airline. If we reduce the number of major airlines, the seniority lists at those respective airlines get bigger, essentially creating one of a few "national seniority lists." Fewer airlines is better for pilots.
So yes, there should be contract improvements. But even if the contract is not industry leading, but industry top, this merger will be good for all pilots (UAL, CAL, and everyone in the profession).
Whatever the case maybe, you are delusional at best and laughable as well. We will be setting the tone around our industry and IMO, UAL's 2000 Contract will do just fine.
Ignore function forthcoming.
07-19-2010, 08:05 PM
#30
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,709
Sorry IAH but you do not speak for me or any of the other 4500 CAL Pilots. Are you some management plant or perhaps you are an aspiring management wanna be?
This guy is either a scab or an anti union management shill. He was spouting off about how the Spirit strike was going to fail and how many guys were going to cross etc etc.
He also made a statement on another thread about how glad he was that he doesn't work for a union outfit. I believe that he mentioned that he worked for Sky West and Jet Blue. So somehow he's frigging expert on everything to do with union contracts and such....
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