Council 34 S/T Report, 7/6/2010
07-21-2010, 07:18 PM
#41
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 28
Originally Posted by SoCalGuy
Good point Fritz......
Good news for the New UAL is that there are some of the B787 off CAL's order coming within the year - early 2011 (a$$uming Boeing keeps it on track), and then UAL's B787 orders in 2016 will also do the new carrier very nicely w/ more B787 being added to the fleet.
CAL's present SCOPE dictates that ALL it's a/c orders prior to "MAY 3rd" will be flown by CAL pilots, on CAL block hours till such time the single certificate is given by the government (Merger Complete). Until then, CAL's SCOPE prevents the flying & airframes to be shifted until the entire deal is done....ie ONE certificate.
Good news for the New UAL is that there are some of the B787 off CAL's order coming within the year - early 2011 (a$$uming Boeing keeps it on track), and then UAL's B787 orders in 2016 will also do the new carrier very nicely w/ more B787 being added to the fleet.
CAL's present SCOPE dictates that ALL it's a/c orders prior to "MAY 3rd" will be flown by CAL pilots, on CAL block hours till such time the single certificate is given by the government (Merger Complete). Until then, CAL's SCOPE prevents the flying & airframes to be shifted until the entire deal is done....ie ONE certificate.
I keep hearing this sentiment repeated and I wonder where this notion comes from. The FAA and the company control the transition to a single certificate. The certificate governs Ops Specs, AQP training, record keeping systems, maintenance procedures, etc., etc. There is nothing in our contract that blocks the company from obtaining a single certificate. The only thing our contract stipulates is that until there is an ISL and JCBA, CAL pilots can't fly with UAL pilots or fly UAL A/C and vice versa.
Case in point, when was the last time you heard the "US Air" call sign. It's been quite a while because they've had a single certificate for quite a while hence the "Cactus" call sign used by all US Airways flights -- despite the fact that the east and west pilots still don't fly together or fly each other's A/C.
07-21-2010, 09:32 PM
#42
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
Posts: 2,086
Originally Posted by 2wright
[/B]
I keep hearing this sentiment repeated and I wonder where this notion comes from. The FAA and the company control the transition to a single certificate. The certificate governs Ops Specs, AQP training, record keeping systems, maintenance procedures, etc., etc. There is nothing in our contract that blocks the company from obtaining a single certificate. The only thing our contract stipulates is that until there is an ISL and JCBA, CAL pilots can't fly with UAL pilots or fly UAL A/C and vice versa.
Case in point, when was the last time you heard the "US Air" call sign. It's been quite a while because they've had a single certificate for quite a while hence the "Cactus" call sign used by all US Airways flights -- despite the fact that the east and west pilots still don't fly together or fly each other's A/C.
I keep hearing this sentiment repeated and I wonder where this notion comes from. The FAA and the company control the transition to a single certificate. The certificate governs Ops Specs, AQP training, record keeping systems, maintenance procedures, etc., etc. There is nothing in our contract that blocks the company from obtaining a single certificate. The only thing our contract stipulates is that until there is an ISL and JCBA, CAL pilots can't fly with UAL pilots or fly UAL A/C and vice versa.
Case in point, when was the last time you heard the "US Air" call sign. It's been quite a while because they've had a single certificate for quite a while hence the "Cactus" call sign used by all US Airways flights -- despite the fact that the east and west pilots still don't fly together or fly each other's A/C.
The quote that I made above was regarding CAL's explicit SCOPE provisions under it's present CBA. As it's been expressed before on this forum, CAL's CBA/SCOPE provisions prevent mgt from moving any airframes ordered prior to MAY 3rd (and future deliveries tagged to those orders) from being moved over/delivered to 'other' flying......in this case, the present UAL. Nothing more/nothing less other than the movement of 'new' fleet assets.
As far as the single certificate, the final approval as everything to do with the government's nod. It's the "exec's" job the sell to the government how a merger would benefit the consumer, present employee's, and indirectly, the industry in which is serves. This entire 'horse and pony' show has been played out live and in person for all to see in the recent months.
07-22-2010, 07:31 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: B777 FO
Posts: 240
But our Scope Clause (CAL) strictly prohibits the airline operating under a single operating certificate until we have a JCBA and SLI. There will be no new United until we get those two things.
G. In the event of a Complete Transaction or a Fragmentation Sale (as defined in
Paragraph E, above), during any period of separate operation prior to integration of the
pre-merger operations, the Company and the other Entity involved in the transaction
will each irrevocably commit in writing that it will:
1. Keep separate the operations of the Company and any other carrier party to the
transaction at all times prior to such merger of operations and the concomitant
integration of pilot collective bargaining agreements (if applicable) and of pilot
seniority lists, whichever is latest; and
2. Conduct the operations of the Company with the Continental Pilots and Flight
Instructors performing all work covered by the Agreement; and
3. Forbear from interchanging or transferring pilots or aircraft:
a. In the case of a Complete Transaction, between the Company and the
other carrier, and
b. In the case of a Fragmentation Sale, between the assets disposed of or
acquired and the acquiring company,
In each case without the Association’s written consent; and
Section 1 - Recognition and Scope Part 8 - Expedited Board of Adjustment Procedures
1-19
4. Assure that, in the event of a Complete Transaction, or a Fragmentation Sale in
which the Company is the acquiring carrier, the Continental Pilots on the
Company's System Seniority List prior to the acquisition operate, in
accordance with this Agreement, all aircraft on hand at the Company, all
aircraft on firm order to the Company and all aircraft acquired by the Company
after the public announcement of the acquisition (other than as a result of the
transaction or any subsequent transaction); provided however that nothing
herein will be construed to prevent fleet reductions which the Company can
demonstrate are attributable to economic reasons not related to the Complete
Transaction or Fragmentation Sale, or the retirement of existing aircraft in the
normal course of business or as a result of casualty loss; and
5. Meet promptly with the Association to negotiate the implementation of the
provisions of Paragraphs G.1 through G.4 above and other possible “Fence
Agreements” to be in effect during the period, if any, the two carriers’
operations are to be operated separately without integration of the pilot
workforce.
6. Assure that in the event of a Complete Transaction, in each consecutive
calendar quarter during separate operations, the ratios of block hours of (1)
Company flying scheduled to be flown on single-aisle aircraft to block hours
of the other carrier scheduled to be flown on single-aisle aircraft and (2)
Company flying scheduled to be flown on twin-aisle aircraft to block hours of
the other carrier scheduled to be flown on twin-aisle aircraft will in each case
equal or exceed the same ratios determined for the same three (3) month period
during the twelve (12) consecutive calendar months immediately prior to the
closing of such Transaction. The Company will be excused from compliance
with such minimum scheduled aircraft block hours for the period of time that
either a Circumstance beyond the Company’s Control or the previouslyscheduled
retirement of aircraft in the normal course of business causes the
Company to reduce or cancel service, or a governmental agency requirement
causes the Company to reduce or cancel service as a condition of approval of
the Transaction, and that the listed event is the cause of such non-compliance.
H. Subject to applicable securities and other laws and regulations, the Company will
review with the Association the details of any material agreements relating to a Complete Transaction, Partial Transaction, or a Fragmentation Sale in a timely
manner; provided that financial or other confidential business information will only bedisclosed under suitable agreements for protecting the confidentiality and use of suchinformation.
G. In the event of a Complete Transaction or a Fragmentation Sale (as defined in
Paragraph E, above), during any period of separate operation prior to integration of the
pre-merger operations, the Company and the other Entity involved in the transaction
will each irrevocably commit in writing that it will:
1. Keep separate the operations of the Company and any other carrier party to the
transaction at all times prior to such merger of operations and the concomitant
integration of pilot collective bargaining agreements (if applicable) and of pilot
seniority lists, whichever is latest; and
2. Conduct the operations of the Company with the Continental Pilots and Flight
Instructors performing all work covered by the Agreement; and
3. Forbear from interchanging or transferring pilots or aircraft:
a. In the case of a Complete Transaction, between the Company and the
other carrier, and
b. In the case of a Fragmentation Sale, between the assets disposed of or
acquired and the acquiring company,
In each case without the Association’s written consent; and
Section 1 - Recognition and Scope Part 8 - Expedited Board of Adjustment Procedures
1-19
4. Assure that, in the event of a Complete Transaction, or a Fragmentation Sale in
which the Company is the acquiring carrier, the Continental Pilots on the
Company's System Seniority List prior to the acquisition operate, in
accordance with this Agreement, all aircraft on hand at the Company, all
aircraft on firm order to the Company and all aircraft acquired by the Company
after the public announcement of the acquisition (other than as a result of the
transaction or any subsequent transaction); provided however that nothing
herein will be construed to prevent fleet reductions which the Company can
demonstrate are attributable to economic reasons not related to the Complete
Transaction or Fragmentation Sale, or the retirement of existing aircraft in the
normal course of business or as a result of casualty loss; and
5. Meet promptly with the Association to negotiate the implementation of the
provisions of Paragraphs G.1 through G.4 above and other possible “Fence
Agreements” to be in effect during the period, if any, the two carriers’
operations are to be operated separately without integration of the pilot
workforce.
6. Assure that in the event of a Complete Transaction, in each consecutive
calendar quarter during separate operations, the ratios of block hours of (1)
Company flying scheduled to be flown on single-aisle aircraft to block hours
of the other carrier scheduled to be flown on single-aisle aircraft and (2)
Company flying scheduled to be flown on twin-aisle aircraft to block hours of
the other carrier scheduled to be flown on twin-aisle aircraft will in each case
equal or exceed the same ratios determined for the same three (3) month period
during the twelve (12) consecutive calendar months immediately prior to the
closing of such Transaction. The Company will be excused from compliance
with such minimum scheduled aircraft block hours for the period of time that
either a Circumstance beyond the Company’s Control or the previouslyscheduled
retirement of aircraft in the normal course of business causes the
Company to reduce or cancel service, or a governmental agency requirement
causes the Company to reduce or cancel service as a condition of approval of
the Transaction, and that the listed event is the cause of such non-compliance.
H. Subject to applicable securities and other laws and regulations, the Company will
review with the Association the details of any material agreements relating to a Complete Transaction, Partial Transaction, or a Fragmentation Sale in a timely
manner; provided that financial or other confidential business information will only bedisclosed under suitable agreements for protecting the confidentiality and use of suchinformation.
08-19-2010, 11:19 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: 747 Captain, retired
Posts: 928
Originally Posted by HSLD
Council 34 Secretary / Treasurer’s Report
July 6, 2010
The Conundrum
When I re-read this quote last week attached to a Council 12 update it brought back painful memories of bankruptcy, of how we were managed and manipulated, scared and beaten into accepting much worse than was necessary or deserved. We continue to be viewed by management as something to be manipulated, kept down with minimal expectations. To any of you out there who believe we are still “managers,” get real. We are blue-collared workers, to be spent and used as our management feels necessary to make a buck off the back of labor. That is their job, it is business and it’s not personal (although it might feel like that sometimes).
So much that we hear and read from the mouths and pens of our current management has a deliberate theme, motive and intention. Most of the time it is to manage our expectations, to try to make us feel a kinship with the way they wish to proceed. The above quote by James Sprayregen, United Airlines Lead Bankruptcy Attorney, illustrates this well. They wanted to get rid of our pensions; they realized this was not going to be an easy sell so they got into the “hearts and minds of the employees.” They made it seem as if there was no option, a slow relentless build up and then the quick, professional knife to the heart as our pensions were torn away with barely a sigh from anyone.
This merger is starting to move along similar lines. As they try to lower our expectations, excuses as to why they cannot do this or that abound. It is all about managing this troublesome workforce’s expectations in such a way as to maximize the long term net gain for themselves.
However, this time management has a conundrum. On the one hand they wish to downplay any synergies this merger will provide, realizing that we expect to translate a portion of these profits into rewards for ourselves, the employees. They must balance this reality against the need to sell the merger to the shareholders, Wall Street, and the bankers who need to be reassured that the synergies will be there to fund this merger and reward the investors. You actually have to feel quite sorry for Glenn and his cadre of bean counters (not). Remember though these guys are specialists in “getting into the hearts and minds” of the employees (think manipulation). Rest assured, there will be plenty of doublespeak going on behind closed doors as “synergies and run rates” are bandied about with a sly nod, a wink and a crooked hand shake.
All of us, as an employee group, need to realize that this merger does have a one-time opportunity associated with it. Future contract negotiations will again be along more normal lines as financial numbers and news are manipulated to control our expectations. This time, with the “conundrum” working in our favor, we must stand our ground and demand our fair share.
For those of you out there who are still suffering from a little, “wannabe manager” syndrome, take a look at your last W2. Compare what you find with a comparable Southwest / Alaska / UPS / almost anybody, and wake up. We have all been badly taken; since bankruptcy we have worked hard for very little. Now is the time to proudly don your blue collar and start thinking about your families.
I am not suggesting that we kill the golden goose. What I am saying is that we have to end the mindset of “labor is the problem.” We are not the problem. In fact, as a percentage of revenue, labor costs on this property are at an all time low! Our labor costs are approximately half of those at DAL in terms of percentage of revenue. The combined CAL / UAL projected revenue is a whopping $33 billion-per-year. Adopt the mindset that we have earned our fair share of this money. Your families deserve this.
Ben Landon
Secretary /Treasurer C34
July 6, 2010
The Conundrum
When I re-read this quote last week attached to a Council 12 update it brought back painful memories of bankruptcy, of how we were managed and manipulated, scared and beaten into accepting much worse than was necessary or deserved. We continue to be viewed by management as something to be manipulated, kept down with minimal expectations. To any of you out there who believe we are still “managers,” get real. We are blue-collared workers, to be spent and used as our management feels necessary to make a buck off the back of labor. That is their job, it is business and it’s not personal (although it might feel like that sometimes).
So much that we hear and read from the mouths and pens of our current management has a deliberate theme, motive and intention. Most of the time it is to manage our expectations, to try to make us feel a kinship with the way they wish to proceed. The above quote by James Sprayregen, United Airlines Lead Bankruptcy Attorney, illustrates this well. They wanted to get rid of our pensions; they realized this was not going to be an easy sell so they got into the “hearts and minds of the employees.” They made it seem as if there was no option, a slow relentless build up and then the quick, professional knife to the heart as our pensions were torn away with barely a sigh from anyone.
This merger is starting to move along similar lines. As they try to lower our expectations, excuses as to why they cannot do this or that abound. It is all about managing this troublesome workforce’s expectations in such a way as to maximize the long term net gain for themselves.
However, this time management has a conundrum. On the one hand they wish to downplay any synergies this merger will provide, realizing that we expect to translate a portion of these profits into rewards for ourselves, the employees. They must balance this reality against the need to sell the merger to the shareholders, Wall Street, and the bankers who need to be reassured that the synergies will be there to fund this merger and reward the investors. You actually have to feel quite sorry for Glenn and his cadre of bean counters (not). Remember though these guys are specialists in “getting into the hearts and minds” of the employees (think manipulation). Rest assured, there will be plenty of doublespeak going on behind closed doors as “synergies and run rates” are bandied about with a sly nod, a wink and a crooked hand shake.
All of us, as an employee group, need to realize that this merger does have a one-time opportunity associated with it. Future contract negotiations will again be along more normal lines as financial numbers and news are manipulated to control our expectations. This time, with the “conundrum” working in our favor, we must stand our ground and demand our fair share.
For those of you out there who are still suffering from a little, “wannabe manager” syndrome, take a look at your last W2. Compare what you find with a comparable Southwest / Alaska / UPS / almost anybody, and wake up. We have all been badly taken; since bankruptcy we have worked hard for very little. Now is the time to proudly don your blue collar and start thinking about your families.
I am not suggesting that we kill the golden goose. What I am saying is that we have to end the mindset of “labor is the problem.” We are not the problem. In fact, as a percentage of revenue, labor costs on this property are at an all time low! Our labor costs are approximately half of those at DAL in terms of percentage of revenue. The combined CAL / UAL projected revenue is a whopping $33 billion-per-year. Adopt the mindset that we have earned our fair share of this money. Your families deserve this.
Ben Landon
Secretary /Treasurer C34
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