New United assumes 70 seat plus scope
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: 747 Captain, retired
Posts: 928
As a "not yet" UAL pilot, I've wanted to ask this question for years. In fact I did ask so rhetorically (to myself), but never had the cahones to ask a UAL pilot. First off, I know all about the "you had to die, quit or retire" scenario concerning ESOP ownership cash outs. At my here and now place in life however; if my stock compensation was worth 8-10 times my annual earnings and I could have taken a step back and looked at what I was making vs. what the rest of the industry was making... well you know where I'm going with this. What an impossible decision to make. Am I a stock holder with an interest in profitability? or am I a blue collar unionist with a vested interest in wages? What an unfair, diametrically opposed choice to have to make. The capitalist in me says take the money and run, but the pilot in me says stay in the cockpit. Ya'll owned stock but didn't act like stock holders.
I'm not legitimizing Gene and the DIP financier's claims that wages bankrupt the airline - God knows there were many other factors.
What would have happened however if all the UAL pilots with an ESOP position, via ALPA, would have gone to management in the late 90's and said, "We want to outsource our cockpit jobs for 20 cents on the dollar, but we still want to be manager owners"?
I'm not legitimizing Gene and the DIP financier's claims that wages bankrupt the airline - God knows there were many other factors.
What would have happened however if all the UAL pilots with an ESOP position, via ALPA, would have gone to management in the late 90's and said, "We want to outsource our cockpit jobs for 20 cents on the dollar, but we still want to be manager owners"?
The original ESOP that was voted on by the employees and turned down by the IAM would have made the employees OWNERs unlike the ESOP we got after the IAM voted it down, made the employee's (Except the FA's who decided they wanted no part of the 2nd ESOP) RENTERS.
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: Sitting down and facing front in a plane
Posts: 136
It was not the United Pilots contract that put United into bankruptcy.
Bankruptcy was strategic and opportunistic on the companies part (have you not seen the interviews with the companies attorneys?) with the gutting of the employee contracts/pensions an added bonus.
While the pay rates of C2000 may not be achieved through the current negotiations; I fully expect all previous work rule and overrides to be restored.
I personally have no wish to be "The Highest Paid" in the industry. Just very close to that.
Bankruptcy was strategic and opportunistic on the companies part (have you not seen the interviews with the companies attorneys?) with the gutting of the employee contracts/pensions an added bonus.
While the pay rates of C2000 may not be achieved through the current negotiations; I fully expect all previous work rule and overrides to be restored.
I personally have no wish to be "The Highest Paid" in the industry. Just very close to that.
You really expect UAL to go back to allowing wide-body captains to work 5-6 months out of the year and pay them over $300K/yr? What color is the sky in YOUR world?
Here is what I envision: UAL is going to pay pilots a premium to fly overseas, fly at night and work long duty days. AND THAT IS APPROPRIATE, because pilots produce heavily and sacrifice by doing so.
Finally, you say you only wish to "be close" the highest paid in the industry. Are you willing to be "very close" to the most productive and efficient? I would submit that most UAL pilots could not handle the pace at a company like SWA. Many have had the opportunity to go over to SWA during the last decade (and some have) but most chose not to because they wouldn't like to work that much. JMHO.
Jay Dee
#133
Didn't say it was THEE thing that took them there, but it was one of the reasons. If you can't understand that, you're not really a serious player in the discussion.
You really expect UAL to go back to allowing wide-body captains to work 5-6 months out of the year and pay them over $300K/yr? What color is the sky in YOUR world?
Here is what I envision: UAL is going to pay pilots a premium to fly overseas, fly at night and work long duty days. AND THAT IS APPROPRIATE, because pilots produce heavily and sacrifice by doing so.
Finally, you say you only wish to "be close" the highest paid in the industry. Are you willing to be "very close" to the most productive and efficient? I would submit that most UAL pilots could not handle the pace at a company like SWA. Many have had the opportunity to go over to SWA during the last decade (and some have) but most chose not to because they wouldn't like to work that much. JMHO.
Jay Dee
You really expect UAL to go back to allowing wide-body captains to work 5-6 months out of the year and pay them over $300K/yr? What color is the sky in YOUR world?
Here is what I envision: UAL is going to pay pilots a premium to fly overseas, fly at night and work long duty days. AND THAT IS APPROPRIATE, because pilots produce heavily and sacrifice by doing so.
Finally, you say you only wish to "be close" the highest paid in the industry. Are you willing to be "very close" to the most productive and efficient? I would submit that most UAL pilots could not handle the pace at a company like SWA. Many have had the opportunity to go over to SWA during the last decade (and some have) but most chose not to because they wouldn't like to work that much. JMHO.
Jay Dee
#134
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 172
Didn't say it was THEE thing that took them there, but it was one of the reasons. If you can't understand that, you're not really a serious player in the discussion.
You really expect UAL to go back to allowing wide-body captains to work 5-6 months out of the year and pay them over $300K/yr? What color is the sky in YOUR world?
Here is what I envision: UAL is going to pay pilots a premium to fly overseas, fly at night and work long duty days. AND THAT IS APPROPRIATE, because pilots produce heavily and sacrifice by doing so.
Finally, you say you only wish to "be close" the highest paid in the industry. Are you willing to be "very close" to the most productive and efficient? I would submit that most UAL pilots could not handle the pace at a company like SWA. Many have had the opportunity to go over to SWA during the last decade (and some have) but most chose not to because they wouldn't like to work that much. JMHO.
Jay Dee
You really expect UAL to go back to allowing wide-body captains to work 5-6 months out of the year and pay them over $300K/yr? What color is the sky in YOUR world?
Here is what I envision: UAL is going to pay pilots a premium to fly overseas, fly at night and work long duty days. AND THAT IS APPROPRIATE, because pilots produce heavily and sacrifice by doing so.
Finally, you say you only wish to "be close" the highest paid in the industry. Are you willing to be "very close" to the most productive and efficient? I would submit that most UAL pilots could not handle the pace at a company like SWA. Many have had the opportunity to go over to SWA during the last decade (and some have) but most chose not to because they wouldn't like to work that much. JMHO.
Jay Dee
The sky is blue.
I believe your vision is accurate.
Handle the pace at SWA?? You have no clue do you. Most narrow body pilots at United fly near 90 hours EVERY month with 12 days off.
I can only guess that you are reflecting on flying that was being done in the 1990's when the guarantee was 78 hours - with most flying around 75 hours. Those days are long gone.
United pilots are AS efficient as SWA or any other group out there when comparing narrow body flying. I have no way to respond to your apparent love for SWA crews - I will let someone else do that.
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: A-320/A
Posts: 588
Hi Fellas,
I have a few friends over at UAL, and CAL, and would like to see your merger go off without a hitch. I'm a '95 hire at a carrier that competes with UAL in Narita, but currently fly domestic. I also recently went through a merger. You guys will have a few ups & downs over the next 18-24 months, no matter how it goes. That's the nature of expectations. My sincere hope is that you can collectively use the intrinsic leverage your position(s) command, and make this merger work to your advantage. Ask your union reps hard questions--respectfully. Attend every union meeting you possibly can. Don't let a very few pilots "run the show". Stay informed on the issues. Your career belongs to you. It does not belong to management. When they hired you, many of you resigned seniority numbers in exchange for a career. Take back ownership of it.
Fraternally,
Chuck
I have a few friends over at UAL, and CAL, and would like to see your merger go off without a hitch. I'm a '95 hire at a carrier that competes with UAL in Narita, but currently fly domestic. I also recently went through a merger. You guys will have a few ups & downs over the next 18-24 months, no matter how it goes. That's the nature of expectations. My sincere hope is that you can collectively use the intrinsic leverage your position(s) command, and make this merger work to your advantage. Ask your union reps hard questions--respectfully. Attend every union meeting you possibly can. Don't let a very few pilots "run the show". Stay informed on the issues. Your career belongs to you. It does not belong to management. When they hired you, many of you resigned seniority numbers in exchange for a career. Take back ownership of it.
Fraternally,
Chuck
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,911
Hi Fellas,
I have a few friends over at UAL, and CAL, and would like to see your merger go off without a hitch. I'm a '95 hire at a carrier that competes with UAL in Narita, but currently fly domestic. I also recently went through a merger. You guys will have a few ups & downs over the next 18-24 months, no matter how it goes. That's the nature of expectations. My sincere hope is that you can collectively use the intrinsic leverage your position(s) command, and make this merger work to your advantage. Ask your union reps hard questions--respectfully. Attend every union meeting you possibly can. Don't let a very few pilots "run the show". Stay informed on the issues. Your career belongs to you. It does not belong to management. When they hired you, many of you resigned seniority numbers in exchange for a career. Take back ownership of it.
Fraternally,
Chuck
I have a few friends over at UAL, and CAL, and would like to see your merger go off without a hitch. I'm a '95 hire at a carrier that competes with UAL in Narita, but currently fly domestic. I also recently went through a merger. You guys will have a few ups & downs over the next 18-24 months, no matter how it goes. That's the nature of expectations. My sincere hope is that you can collectively use the intrinsic leverage your position(s) command, and make this merger work to your advantage. Ask your union reps hard questions--respectfully. Attend every union meeting you possibly can. Don't let a very few pilots "run the show". Stay informed on the issues. Your career belongs to you. It does not belong to management. When they hired you, many of you resigned seniority numbers in exchange for a career. Take back ownership of it.
Fraternally,
Chuck
#137
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
SWA does not work at near the pace that our narrowbody guys are at the moment. SWA has far better work rules with far more efficient trips and much more time off. Many of our narrow body guys are flying 90 plus hour months with 12 days off. Add in a large number of all nighters and late afternoon moving to early morning departure in a typical ID and you'll find that there are few SWA guys who would want to give our pace a second look. I don't care who you are these domestic schedules are a serious a$$ kicker.
YIKES!!!! I thought I had a rough summer!
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