Rocketiii

On another note, I have heard that the combined groups are going to use CAL's Carmen PBS company because UAL is happy that it can allow more refined bidding. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be careful what you ask for. The self proclaimed PBS experts here at CAL, who carry and defend PBS as their infant child, will say that the negotiated work rules are what makes the program a complete failure. However, it is also the interface and many other aspects that require a degree in computer science to tell the program you want weekends off (and then it will ignore seniority and build you something). UAL folks, you have NO IDEA how ridiculous our system is. We have been lab rats for half a decade while they try to work out the kinks. But it is just more lipstick on a pig.

Here is how you bid for weekends off on reserve as the program cant respect socalled open end deliminators which maximizes days off and pay........

1) SET - RESERVE LINE - B
2) AWARD RESERVE DAYS DATED: 01Oct2010 00:00 - 31Oct2010 23:59 [L--] (01Oct2010 00:00 - 31Oct2010 23:59)
3) AWARD MOVABLE [H] (09Oct2010 00:00 - 10Oct2010 23:59)
4) AWARD MOVABLE [H] (16Oct2010 00:00 - 17Oct2010 23:59)
5) AWARD MOVABLE [H] (23Oct2010 00:00 - 24Oct2010 23:59)
6) AWARD MOVABLE [H] (30Oct2010 00:00 - 31Oct2010 23:59)
7) AWARD MOVABLE [H] (02Oct2010 00:00 - 02Oct2010 23:59)
8) AVOID RESERVE DAYS DATED: 23Oct2010 00:00 - 24Oct2010 23:59 - (23Oct2010 00:00 - 24Oct2010 23:59)
9) AVOID RESERVE DAYS DATED: 30Oct2010 00:00 - 31Oct2010 23:59 - (30Oct2010 00:00 - 31Oct2010 23:59)
10) AVOID RESERVE DAYS DATED: 09Oct2010 00:00 - 10Oct2010 23:59 - (09Oct2010 00:00 - 10Oct2010 23:59)
11) AVOID RESERVE DAYS DATED: 16Oct2010 00:00 - 17Oct2010 23:59 - (16Oct2010 00:00 - 17Oct2010 23:59)
12) AVOID RESERVE DAYS DATED: 02Oct2010 00:00 - 02Oct2010 23:59 - (02Oct2010 00:00 - 02Oct2010 23:59)
13) AWARD RESERVE DAYS DATED: 01Oct2010 00:00 - 31Oct2010 23:59 [H++] (01Oct2010 00:00 - 31Oct2010 23:59)
14) AWARD RESERVE DAYS DATED: 01Oct2010 00:00 - 31Oct2010 23:59 [L--] (01Oct2010 00:00 - 31Oct2010 23:59)

kc135driver

No PBS expert here but from experience, our PBS is not much better.

Funny how the rumors of PBS consolidation are circling but our work rules are nowhere near being finished.

KC

SoCalGuy

Well, you would be correct 2+ yrs ago. Now day's, there's no such thing as Carmen. It's Jeppesen who own's the enity that was Carmen.

If you choose to realize it or not.....The lack of Rigs/Work Rules at CAL, under the present the POS '02 CBA, do lend to MUCH of the short falls when working with the Jeppesen PBS System. Case in point, if you look at NWA (Pre-DAL), they used Carmen PBS as far back as 2003. Their version was a variant to our "Cadillac System", but none-the-less, it was used there with much more 'success' than that of CAL's results.....Why?? For starters, NWA actually had a solid contract (miles ahead of CAL's present '02) with work rules that enforced the system to deliver what PBS was SOLD TO DO for the pilots....be a 'good' thing.

Having had friends and family members who used it at NWA, the results were NOT perfect, but the "SPLAT", and results were held to a much higher standard than that of ours at CAL when the 18th of each month rolls around. Comparing and contrasting their view on it, it worked much better for them.....again work rules/contract had just about EVERYTHING to do with it when comparing the two results overall.

One major item that you failed to touch on.......CAL ALPA (a'la Jay Panarello & company) back when Contract '02 came about, the Company was "given" PBS, as well as complete control of the "G-Line".....that was one of the BIGGEST mistake and more!! If you were around for that CBA, and voted YES, you sealed your fate to BOHICA every month when the PBS results are handed down for the duration of CBA'02!! That too allows the company to plead "Min Staffing" when you/and other's attempt to trade trips each month to ease the POS bid award that PBS gifted to you. This alone is a MUCH bigger factor than many pilots at CAL realize.

DISCLAIMER: I for one do NOT like PBS as it stands at CAL/and have NO skin in the fight as a 'defender of PBS'. The system is far from perfect, but the point at hand, it's not JUST the system.....It's our CBA that dropped the ball on Rigs/Rules that could preclude many of it's problems. In what the PBS guys are saying, in which you quoted above, is very true.....much more than you appear to realize. This alone is a VIVID reason as to why we need to bolster this upcoming JCBA with 'clad-proof' rules that will fix ANY holes that our current system carries into a future JCBA.....Period.

alfaromeo

Here is how it is in Navtech at Delta:

1. Prefer Off Saturday, Sunday

EWRflyr

The problem with that is at CAL we have movable and immovable days off and in order to bid for weekends off on reserve it becomes a complicated mess. The post above is the recommended way the PBS committee says to do it.

For me, on reserve, I always wondered why the PBS system can't have an option for "prefer TUES/WED OFF" or something to that effect so I don't have to look at dates each month. I prefer to work weekends so I usually get my reserve choices or line choices anyway, but still it should be easier to do.

EWRflyr

Thank you! These are the exact thoughts I have and probably could not have said them better.

Yes, the CAL PBS system has more flexibility options that a pilot can input as a UAL guy explained to me. However, just having more drop down selection menus or sorting options doesn't mean the end result is going to be better without the work rules to go with it.

I have said I am opposed to this PBS system in it's current format because CAL has no work rules and because this pilot group voted in the PBS section of the contract without ever seeing it. Essentially that gave away work rules and scheduling to the company for us to have no control over.

If we can get back the work rules and get control over PBS, then I do think it can be a good system where pilots can be satisfied with the end result. As it stands now we aren't there because CAL has no work rules except the FARs.

Rocketiii

Yall, I understand what you are saying. But I argue that it is not just a workrule related problem that causes Carmen/Jep (which is COMPLETELY not important) to be a very bad program. TWA had a program 14 years ago that prioritized and had complete flexibility. It honored seniority. It was not 100% efficient for the company as ours is. But it had the use of open end deliminators which our PBS is unable to do because of the software limitation and has been spoken about years ago.

You cannot say "Give me weekends off" and have the program give you the MOST weekends off it can. You cannot say build me a line with the most days off. You have to go through a 20 page sequence of requesting trips with specific values to force it to think in that way. You cannot ask for max pay or max days off. The computer cant do it.

Sometimes people just dont know what a good thing is so they think that what they have, or what another has, is the best. But the way this ba$tard came along was incompetent people making themselves self appointed experts on paid trip leave to smooze vendors and come up with one. Even though there were adequate vendors availble, we chose a startup with pie in the sky promises. 5 years later we still get a trickle of bandaids to fix things. And they are not WORK RULE RELATED FIXES.

Many people complain about the process. SO if it was just work rules, lets see how easy it is to reprogram the computer with the the projected new rest rules. Lets see if Jep is up to the task of making a change.

You may just find out that THAT VENDOR does not have the capacity or ability to make changes to the software and will fail miserably when they try to install new work rules.

Seniority is NOT followed and that is not just a function of work rules. The computer is UNABLE to work without optimizing the whole pilot group and taking trips from junior bidders and giving them to senior bidders. Partial lines are built for junior pilots over senior reserves just because of various carry in and out scenarios. And it took 5 years to do that after a so-called dynamic bid model was promised at that time.

It works for many, but it is a ridiculously complicated system.

BTW, show me how my above complicated bid for a reserve line with weekends off is work rule related?

I was also told in a dispute I files that the "reserve bidding system really doesnt work" and that movable days off really arent assigned in seniority order. What a waste.

luv757

Workrules notwithstanding, the problem with PBS is it takes 75 lines of code for even a simple request. Looking at Alfa's example above with weekends off. We have to create three buckets using variations of the same line of code repeated under different AVOID statements. DAL's, as I am to understand so correct me if I am wrong, uses the Prefer Off Saturday, Sunday. Then you put the types of trips you want, then you can put in a line that basically says, Ignore the Sat/Sun line and re-run. This gets you as many trips as it can with Sat/Sun off and if it doesn't have a full line, puts in filler weekend trips.

End result? Less programing and you may actually get some weekends off.

SoCalGuy

It is 'kinda' important when you point 'fault' to a vendor who is not even our provider anymore within the system that currently resides at CAL.
<RELAX, drenched with sarcasim amigo>

Again, re-read what I wrote in the Disclaimer above earlier in the thread......I agree with you on the fact, PBS is NOT perfect. When looking at the 'old school way' of bidding out of bid packs, there was ONE, and ONLY ONE factor that drove the bus on the award process.....and that was seniority. I have YET to see/find ANY PBS systems that are presently 'shelved'/in production that will do just that.....Run with Seniority as being the SOLO/number one driver. With PBS straight outta the box, it just does NOT happen. WORK RULES/RIGS ect would MAKE the system award things differently. No long would you have to play mind bender tricker to "Trick F" PBS into what you want....your NEW JCBA would have your back on that in protecting you from a lot of the mess that PBS lays out every month. PBS's ONLY job is too 'optimize' flying/block hours in the MOST efficient (pro-company) manner. If you let PBS run a muck with out RIG/RULES/constraints....you get what we have.....thus we NEED RULES/RIGS to make it work.

It's no secret....with ALL things being equal (CBA/Rigs/Rules/Training/VAC/ect...), PBS is an asset to the company in Man-Power Planning when weighing Bid Packs vs PBS monthly scheduling.....plain & simple. This is ONLY/further re-enforced by the way the company wanted to bring it aboard so badly in POS'02. Negotiations 101, what's NOT good for them, they don't promote.

This year, when CAL began to run the "dynamic" process during the award process, there have been 'some' noted success in honoring seniority in the PBS awards.....the way things should be.

Another problem when dealing with PBS is "unrealistic expectations" on behalf of some of the bidding demographics. I will not ask you (nor do I expect you tell me), but if your BES percentage is 85% vs someone in the same BES who is 40%.....the proper/expected outcome, with all things being equal, should award the senior pilot a 'better' line than that of the junior pilot. I have heard A LOT (both CA & FO) say "GOSH!!! I got screwed again by PBS".....I have asked many times....how so?? Some who have taken the time to show me their bid groups (many having 1-20 groups built), Many, if not all, bid EXTREMELY unrealistic/outside their BES, and wonder, how come they got delt a *******wich. The same concept lays w/in 'old school' packs as well......Don't expect to score the 19 Day Off - 85 hr line with Xmas/Easter/Thx-Giving/ect off when your bidding 85% in BES....I know that's a bit aggressive of an example, but there are those out there who fault PBS and honestly bid like that month after month with undesirable results.

What I DON'T understand is that you say improved (massive or otherwise) work rules by way of a new JCBA will NOT improve our (or UAL's present) current Jeppesen PBS?? As stated earlier, the old NWA used a version of a 'old Carmen" system, it worked just 'fine'.....or should I stated MUCH BETTER than ours. It's no secret, and one I'm sure you've come familiar with, our PRESENT work rules are none-existent in our CBA (UAL's current BK has better Rules/Rigs than we do!!). When seeing another carrier (NWA) who had much better work rules in contrast to ours, have success with the old Carmen style PBS merely in having better work rules.....I'm sorry, I don't see how your argument holds water.

Bottom line.....when/if we ever get a TA in the next decade, use your "Rocketii' vote. Some will vote a TA that has solid/encompassing scope protection.....Other's will vote down a TA that includes any type of PBS within it's frame work.....that would be your cue if that's your bone to pick regarding your disdain. Seriously, I admire your passion on the PBS topic, and it's something that hands down HAS TO BE ADDRESSED in any future agreement by ways of mass over-haul of Rules/Rigs.

Keep fight'in the good fight.....Cheers.

Rocketiii

Cheers also,

I fully accept the idea of a PBS system. I obviously detest the work rules that create the bid awards. I believe the current vendor is not capable of providing a good product as evidenced by 5 years of bandaid fixes to a beta software model that we helped trouble shoot. I think the vendor was choses using methods not in the pilots' best interests. I do not believe the current vendor is capable of changing to meet a complete to joint agreement in ANY sort of acceptable time frame and that both groups will suffer for YEARS as it is made to 'function'. Your statements about dynamic bid models and following seniority flies in the face of me disputing 3 months out of 4 how I was forced into a line of time when I bid reserve while junior and senior pilots to me were given reserve and many pilots senior to me would have loved to have my line of time. I have used the system in all regions of the seniority list on all of our aircraft. The success of my bid award does not sway my opinion of the JEP vendor's product. If DAL likes their's, then why dont we have it? I asked that to some of our gurus who defend this program as a newborn and they admitted not knowing details of the DAL system. That shows negligence in my mind.

Cheers