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-   -   Progress this week? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/united/54349-progress-week.html)

dvhighdrive88 10-25-2010 09:12 AM

Progress this week?
 
The latest updates sorta, kinda, maybe, possibly hint that the company will be responding to what has been passed to them. Can we expect any fireworks or will this been more of what we've seen in the past?

If there is progress, how might the more experienced folks know what to look for "between the lines"?

skippy 10-25-2010 09:13 AM

there will be no planned progress--

dvhighdrive88 10-25-2010 11:19 AM

:D

Lol, skippy. Somebody told me like 5 million guys are retiring eventually. I guess they'll need us someday.

It's almost happy hour...cheers!

luv757 10-25-2010 06:33 PM


Originally Posted by dvhighdrive88 (Post 890253)
:D

Lol, skippy. Somebody told me like 5 million guys are retiring eventually. I guess they'll need us someday.

It's almost happy hour...cheers!

So the pilot shortage isn't a myth! ;)

skippy 10-26-2010 04:09 AM

united has a surplus and cant get enough LOA's.
no united pilots recalled to cal until at least summer 11 , if then.

70 seaters to IAH.

nice tranistion agreement--- and the scope pope? thats hilarious-- so obvioulsy he didnt draw up the tranistion agreement language bc THERE SHOULDNT EVEN BE A DISCUSSION ON WHETHER UNITED CAN DO THAT-- IT SHOULD BE PLAINLY WORDED

fn embarassing
we lose again

EWR73FO 10-26-2010 04:37 AM


Originally Posted by skippy (Post 890633)
fn embarassing
we lose again

And you are suprised by this? Can't get any better with this pilot group. I'm quite sure there will be quite enough docuhebags to vote yes on a 2 1/2% pay raise with adjusted scope and long as the A fund lump sum remains intact.

EWRflyr 10-26-2010 06:32 AM


Originally Posted by skippy (Post 890176)
there will be no planned progress--

Yes there will be. The PLAN is for management to return to the table and just say NO. So I guess there is a PLAN to have NO PROGRESS.

EWRflyr 10-26-2010 06:37 AM


Originally Posted by EWR73FO (Post 890639)
And you are suprised by this? Can't get any better with this pilot group. I'm quite sure there will be quite enough docuhebags to vote yes on a 2 1/2% pay raise with adjusted scope and long as the A fund lump sum remains intact.

As a much as I am a firm believer in us all watching out for all parts of the seniority list, part of me would like to see them squirm out a vote of a JCBA with no lump sum entitlement. Enough of these guys have sold out the junior guys for years that it would be poetic justice for them to get a taste of their own medicine where the junior guys sell out the senior ones.

Let me clarify again: I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS AT ALL! Just the ramblings of a sarcastic pilot this morning. :D

EWR73FO 10-26-2010 10:35 AM


Originally Posted by EWRflyr (Post 890694)
As a much as I am a firm believer in us all watching out for all parts of the seniority list, part of me would like to see them squirm out a vote of a JCBA with no lump sum entitlement. Enough of these guys have sold out the junior guys for years that it would be poetic justice for them to get a taste of their own medicine where the junior guys sell out the senior ones.

Let me clarify again: I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS AT ALL! Just the ramblings of a sarcastic pilot this morning. :D


I will side with the majority and accept what the majority wants through the democratic process but why defend them when they would hang you or I out to dry in a New York minute.

Rocketiii 10-26-2010 10:40 AM


Originally Posted by EWR73FO (Post 890815)
I will side with the majority and accept what the majority wants through the democratic process but why defend them when they would hang you or I out to dry in a New York minute.

Careful guys. I understand where you are coming from. But there are many good guys that lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in retirement. Many of them were NO voters. Lets just insist on idustry leading in EVERY department, with retro and the loan being repaid, and not get the idea floating around of junior vs senior.

tomgoodman 10-26-2010 10:47 AM


Originally Posted by luv757 (Post 890485)
So the pilot shortage isn't a myth! ;)

The only carrier to experience a serious pilot shortage was Munchkin Airlines. They solved it with booster seats. :D

EWRflyr 10-26-2010 11:04 AM


Originally Posted by Rocketiii (Post 890818)
Careful guys. I understand where you are coming from. But there are many good guys that lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in retirement. Many of them were NO voters. Lets just insist on idustry leading in EVERY department, with retro and the loan being repaid, and not get the idea floating around of junior vs senior.

I agree and have flown with some of those good senior guys. That's why I don't advocate what I said (jokingly) and was obviously at fault for making generalities. Best to ignore the scab population and focus on the rest of the pilot group and what would be best for us.

Jethdlr 10-26-2010 01:10 PM

Lump Sum
 
It would help if you knew ERISA laws and your contract. The lump sum provision can not be negotiated away. Distressed termination or funding level requirements can remove the option. To alter the plan it would require the plan to be unfrozen and brought to current liability......not a chance.

Might as well move on to another subject :D

757Driver 10-26-2010 03:21 PM


Originally Posted by Rocketiii (Post 890818)
Careful guys. I understand where you are coming from. But there are many good guys that lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in retirement. Many of them were NO voters. Lets just insist on industry leading in EVERY department, with retro and the loan being repaid, and not get the idea floating around of junior vs senior.

Count me in as one of those guys. Voted No and will again if EVERYBODY isn't taken care of.

LifeNtheFstLne 10-27-2010 08:43 AM

Stumbled upon a pizza party in the EWR CPO. Stank says company is presenting their proposal to ALPA by week's end, fwiw. The pizza was good, but I didn't eat $30K worth. Try again.

EWR73FO 10-27-2010 07:58 PM


Originally Posted by LifeNtheFstLne (Post 891354)
Stumbled upon a pizza party in the EWR CPO. Stank says company is presenting their proposal to ALPA by week's end, fwiw. The pizza was good, but I didn't eat $30K worth. Try again.

I'm betting on the 2 1/2% pay raise. OF course, unless it gets leaked, we will never see it.

EWR73FO 10-27-2010 08:03 PM


Originally Posted by Rocketiii (Post 890818)
Careful guys. I understand where you are coming from. But there are many good guys that lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in retirement. Many of them were NO voters. Lets just insist on idustry leading in EVERY department, with retro and the loan being repaid, and not get the idea floating around of junior vs senior.

It's not a junior vs senior. Just unhappy now vs quite happy with things the way they are. It just so happens that the majority are in the left seat. We all lost hundreds of tousands of dollars in retirement and age 65 gave everyone the chance to try and ger some of that back. Poor example. I would rather get it back with a smokin-hot, kick-ass, industry leading, top-notch, knock every one else in the industry dead, badass contract. But I digress.....................

ewrbasedpilot 10-27-2010 08:12 PM


Originally Posted by EWR73FO (Post 891749)
........... We all lost hundreds of tousands of dollars in retirement and age 65 gave everyone the chance to try and ger some of that back. Poor example. I would rather get it back with a smokin-hot, kick-ass, industry leading, top-notch, knock every one else in the industry dead, badass contract. But I digress.....................

What's sad though is that MANY of those who have lump sums at CAL are playing the "waiting game" because they are so damn greedy. A lot of them are so far in debt, have three ex wives, a boat, a Harley, and a girlfriend on the side. If they couldn't prepare for retirement in 35 years, then another 5 won't help them either. I'm TIRED of hearing that they can't live on a $700,000 lump sum at this stage in their lives. What the hell are they doing with all their money? I'd like to see an industry leading contract too. I hope to be gone by 58 at the latest and only have 5.5 years left make it happen. However, that DAMN age 65 rule REALLY did a number on me and I find myself making almost $2,000 a month LESS after being pushed back on reserve, thereby putting a damper on me paying off my property so I CAN leave early...............:(

EWRflyr 10-28-2010 06:02 AM


Originally Posted by ewrbasedpilot (Post 891753)
What's sad though is that MANY of those who have lump sums at CAL are playing the "waiting game" because they are so damn greedy. A lot of them are so far in debt, have three ex wives, a boat, a Harley, and a girlfriend on the side. If they couldn't prepare for retirement in 35 years, then another 5 won't help them either. I'm TIRED of hearing that they can't live on a $700,000 lump sum at this stage in their lives. What the hell are they doing with all their money? I'd like to see an industry leading contract too. I hope to be gone by 58 at the latest and only have 5.5 years left make it happen. However, that DAMN age 65 rule REALLY did a number on me and I find myself making almost $2,000 a month LESS after being pushed back on reserve, thereby putting a damper on me paying off my property so I CAN leave early...............:(

I agree. My buddy at UPS says he heard the same thing during their negotiations. "I can't afford to retire until we get this contract." Then what happens? They still didn't retire because they couldn't afford to. He flew with a captain over 60 who had just bought a $70K car and bragged about it while at the same time saying he can't retire.

These guys never learn their lessons. They live beyond their means. I am not a financial genius, but I do feel I spend and invest wisely. Why is it on the **** wage I make as an FO I can save 30% of my gross pay each year and yet I don't live like a pauper or anything close to it?

EWRflyr 10-28-2010 06:05 AM


Originally Posted by LifeNtheFstLne (Post 891354)
Stumbled upon a pizza party in the EWR CPO. Stank says company is presenting their proposal to ALPA by week's end, fwiw. The pizza was good, but I didn't eat $30K worth. Try again.

There was one in IAH a few weeks ago too. Luckily I arrived after the Abbot Song and Dance and managed to have a few slices right at meal time. Saved me from spending a few bucks in the food court too.

Ah, the pizza parties. I hear they are making them so cheap no one will buy what (management) is selling.

EWR73FO 10-28-2010 06:09 AM


Originally Posted by EWRflyr (Post 891848)
There was one in IAH a few weeks ago too. Luckily I arrived after the Abbot Song and Dance and managed to have a few slices right at meal time. Saved me from spending a few bucks in the food court too.

Ah, the pizza parties. I hear they are making them so cheap no one will buy what (management) is selling.

Suppringsly, since it's fresh food, the aren't making us pay for the crew room pizza.

intrepidcv11 10-28-2010 06:17 AM


Originally Posted by EWRflyr (Post 891848)
There was one in IAH a few weeks ago too. Luckily I arrived after the Abbot Song and Dance and managed to have a few slices right at meal time. Saved me from spending a few bucks in the food court too.

Ah, the pizza parties. I hear they are making them so cheap no one will buy what (management) is selling.

Dear god, Freddo is crawling out from his hole to talk to us again? I'd hoped he learned is lesson after he turned off the NCAA Tourney in order to 'field questions' in the IAH last March.

dumpcheck 10-29-2010 03:32 PM

Can't wait to hear about the proposal...

Did the company submit it to ALPA this week?

EWRflyr 10-30-2010 11:10 AM


Originally Posted by intrepidcv11 (Post 891858)
Dear god, Freddo is crawling out from his hole to talk to us again? I'd hoped he learned is lesson after he turned off the NCAA Tourney in order to 'field questions' in the IAH last March.

Ah, well Fred likes to do things to tweak the pilots he visits.

In EWR, he tells us big displacement bids are done to "help the commuters."

In IAH, he turns off the sports on the big screen. I would hate to see what happens if he turns off high school football in a TX crewroom!

I am wondering what he has done in CLE to torque that base. Anyone from CLE want to add an Abbottism?

These days I think he is busy trying to annoy the pilots on the UAL side. According to United Daily he made his presence known at a recent captain command school class for recent UAL upgrades.

dumpcheck 10-30-2010 11:38 AM


Originally Posted by EWRflyr (Post 893237)
These days I think he is busy trying to annoy the pilots on the UAL side. According to United Daily he made his presence known at a recent captain command school class for recent UAL upgrades.

Didn't realize UAL had any pilots upgrading these days...musta been a small group!

syd111 10-30-2010 01:37 PM


Originally Posted by dumpcheck (Post 893258)
Didn't realize UAL had any pilots upgrading these days...musta been a small group!

There has been some small bids out the last 12 months or so.

EWR73FO 10-30-2010 05:09 PM


I am wondering what he has done in CLE to torque that base. Anyone from CLE want to add an Abbottism?
How about 50% of your flying is worthless 5 day HNL trip that don't even stay in HNL or OGG.

EWRflyr 10-31-2010 10:50 AM


Originally Posted by EWR73FO (Post 893420)
How about 50% of your flying is worthless 5 day HNL trip that don't even stay in HNL or OGG.

What do you mean "that don't even stay in HNL or OGG"?

dumpcheck 10-31-2010 02:42 PM

yes, where does an HNL trip layover?

EWR73FO 10-31-2010 02:45 PM


Originally Posted by dumpcheck (Post 893836)
yes, where does an HNL trip layover?


LAX or SNA.

EWRflyr 10-31-2010 04:56 PM


Originally Posted by 737FO
How about 50% of your flying is worthless 5 day HNL trip that don't even stay in HNL or OGG.


Originally Posted by EWR73FO
LAX or SNA.


Huh? Not sure where you get your information, but the five-day trips have layovers in Hawaii.

I just looked at CCS open time and ads in CLE and there are a few five-day Hawaii trips listed. I see overnights in LAX the first and last day and then either HNL or OGG overnights in the middle.

Yes, they appear worthless.

757Driver 10-31-2010 06:53 PM


Originally Posted by EWRflyr (Post 893903)
Huh? Not sure where you get your information, but the five-day trips have layovers in Hawaii.

I just looked at CCS open time and ads in CLE and there are a few five-day Hawaii trips listed. I see overnights in LAX the first and last day and then either HNL or OGG overnights in the middle.

Yes, they appear worthless.


Some of them are 3 man turns, (IRO), to the islands with layovers in LAX or SNA.

SUPERfluf 11-01-2010 12:06 PM

..................deleted

SUPERfluf 11-01-2010 12:07 PM


Originally Posted by 757Driver (Post 893983)
Some of them are 3 man turns, (IRO), to the islands with layovers in LAX or SNA.

Those are (usually) 3 day trips.

757Driver 11-01-2010 01:44 PM


Originally Posted by SUPERfluf (Post 894332)
Those are (usually) 3 day trips.

Thought I saw a 5 day that did multiple Hawaii turns?

LeeFXDWG 11-01-2010 01:52 PM

More of the story.....
 

Originally Posted by dumpcheck (Post 892867)
Can't wait to hear about the proposal...

Did the company submit it to ALPA this week?

Nothing yet, but just got this little tidbit from the UAL MEC.

Lee


November 1, 2010

Dear Fellow Pilots,

On October 27, 2010, United management presented a comprehensive Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA) proposal to the ALPA Joint Negotiating Committee (JNC). As reported in Friday’s MEC Update, the JNC will be studying all aspects of this proposal. This proposal places on the table the company’s view of what our contract should look like, with stated room to move. As always of great interest to us, among other Sections, are Scope and Compensation.

Since United and Continental announced their plans to merge on May 3, our focus has been on achieving a JCBA that will benefit all pilots at both airlines. The JNC, which is comprised of three members from each of the UAL-MEC and CAL-MEC Negotiating Committees, has passed proposals to its company counterparts on nearly all sections of what will become the JCBA. Unfortunately, the United and Continental MECs reached a roadblock regarding compensation. While I prefer that the MEC and MEC Officers carry the burden for the pilot group on these matters, I also recognize that we have been silent long enough and the time has come to give you the facts surrounding the issue.

The root of the compensation impasse lies in the Continental MEC’s belief that if the compensation proposal is crafted in a certain manner, it may affect the Seniority List Integration (SLI) process. More particularly, the CAL-MEC and its officers have advocated that the compensation proposal be crafted a certain way – specifically with regard to which aircraft are banded together – in the hopes of “leveling the playing field” and attempting to thwart our predominantly large wide body fleet.

Continental stated before members of the UAL-MEC that the “pay banding issue was all about the SLI process.” Also, a member of the CAL-MEC issued an ultimatum – never the best approach to doing business -- to the United MEC that if there was no agreement that included pay banding suitable to the CAL-MEC, the CAL-MEC was content to wait for years without a JCBA until the United MEC relented.

In contrast, the United MEC believes negotiations for a JCBA and the SLI process should remain on separate tracks, as clearly spelled out in ALPA Merger Policy. The reason for separating JCBA negotiations and the SLI process is to avoid a repeat of the US Airways/America West merger debacle. The CAL-MEC’s rhetoric only strengthened the unity and determination of the United MEC in taking the high road in an effort to protect the SLI process and the legitimate interests of United pilots.

The Delta and Northwest pilots avoided polluting their JCBA negotiations with SLI issues during their merger by reaching an agreement, approved by ALPA, that they would not rely on their JCBA wage rates as a basis for arguing that one aircraft type should or should not be grouped with other aircraft types when constructing an integrated seniority list. The CAL-MEC has refused our repeated requests for a similar agreement.

While this has been advertised as a merger of corporate equals, that does not make it a merger of pilot groups with equal career expectations. The equities that each pilot group brings to the table are what they are, and attempts to manipulate those equities through the JCBA process are fundamentally flawed and disadvantageous to every pilot on both properties who desire the best JCBA possible.

Where we currently find ourselves is not the optimal situation, but it is not insurmountable by any means; movement has begun to put the process back on track. It is obvious that there are differences in cultures and philosophies between the two MECs. This is to be expected. It is the responsibility of both pilot groups and their representatives to work around those differences and keep our focus on achieving a JCBA that benefits ALL pilots of the combined airline. We have strong leadership within our MEC to ensure that the future of all United pilots is protected. The United MEC is prepared to utilize all tools available to address the issues that arise as provided for in ALPA Merger Policy up to and including involving the President of the Association and the Executive Council. We owe it to all the pilots of the new United to do so.

I’ve said throughout this merger process that we will not rush into an agreement or settle for an inferior contract just to meet an artificial deadline. The same can be said for anyone who tries to force our hand into accepting an agreement that does not meet the interests of all United pilots.

Together, the United and Continental MECs will find a way of shifting the focus away from each other, and return it to where it belongs: toward our company counterparts across the negotiating table.

Fraternally,



Captain Wendy Morse
Chairman, United MEC

SUPERfluf 11-02-2010 05:39 AM


Originally Posted by 757Driver (Post 894376)
Thought I saw a 5 day that did multiple Hawaii turns?

There are some high productivity 5 day IRO pairings that do multiple HI turns.
Since its a DH out to the west coast and back to CLE, most of the guys get released on the last day and go back to CLE or wherever they live on the last day making it a 4 day.

EWRflyr 11-02-2010 06:34 AM


Originally Posted by SUPERfluf (Post 894696)
There are some high productivity 5 day IRO pairings that do multiple HI turns.
Since its a DH out to the west coast and back to CLE, most of the guys get released on the last day and go back to CLE or wherever they live on the last day making it a 4 day.

Actually did some research on this:

3-day and 4-day HI trips in CLE are higher times with turns and an IRO. Was told that the IRO positions on these trips go very senior because of what was mentioned: DHs on either end. As a result they are almost never in open time because of their productivity.

The 5-day HI trips are the overnights in OGG and HNL. These are the same ones I saw in CLE trip advertisements when I looked in CCS the other day. There are no 5-day trips with HI turns on them. They are the overnights in HI.

Information I got was that the 5-day stuff is always being advertised because of the low value and trip length. Right now just LAX to HNL/OGG exist and SNA flights to HNL/OGG are suspended until mid-December.

757Driver 11-02-2010 07:22 AM


Originally Posted by EWRflyr (Post 894713)
Actually did some research on this:

3-day and 4-day HI trips in CLE are higher times with turns and an IRO. Was told that the IRO positions on these trips go very senior because of what was mentioned: DHs on either end. As a result they are almost never in open time because of their productivity.

The 5-day HI trips are the overnights in OGG and HNL. These are the same ones I saw in CLE trip advertisements when I looked in CCS the other day. There are no 5-day trips with HI turns on them. They are the overnights in HI.

Information I got was that the 5-day stuff is always being advertised because of the low value and trip length. Right now just LAX to HNL/OGG exist and SNA flights to HNL/OGG are suspended until mid-December.

Thanks for the info EWR


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