syd111

a320 what airline did you leave and when. If everyone left an airline when times are tough there would have been nobody left at cal back in the 80's.

A320fumes

I left Usairways after the nicolau debacle. Ironically, I would still have a job their had I stayed, in contrast to the same doh @ UAL. I left because of the nic award, the obvious fact that Alpa was more interested in the top 500 Usairways pilots than pilots @ my seniority, and the fact that USAirways was more interested at merging than running an airline. Fortunately, I have never missed a paycheck or been furloughed again since USAirways decision to furlough me. At USA300, I worked with several UAL pilots who returned to UAL when recalled, only to be furloughed again as a result of, some would say, UAL's decision to furlough them again in pursuit of this merger with CAL. I understand that you never throw away a sr umber at a major, but fail to agree that being furloughed, twice, from UAL is worth more than being less than 100 numbers away from my recently lost Captain's seat @ CAL. I also left USA3000, as a Captain, because running an airline was secondary to the parent company Apple Vacations. I am currently pursuing my Law degree and will once again leave this job if the 800 furloughed, with more LOS than I, UAL pilots are placed ahead of me on a seniority list. I owe it to my family.

intrepidcv11

Which begs the question I've had from the very beginning, how will UAL pilots react to DAL-NWA integration? Quite frankly I accept the comparison, because in the back of my mind I know it's by far the most realistic and the first thing an arbitrator will look to. The reality is that integration creates certain 'windfalls' throughout the combined list. Ask a '87 and '01 CAL hire what he/she thinks of DAL-NWA. You'll get two polar reactions.

We have the next two decades to argue 'well I would of held capt 5 years earlier' and 'well I missed out on 5 years of widebody flying'. Let's get this d@mn thing organized and done. In the background of all this is the simple fact that Jeff Sismek lacks any of the leadership Richard Anderson has shown in making a merger work.

jsled

Reason? Lets talk about reason. Furloughed pilots aside, the bottom line for me is that the DAL/NWA MECs agreed to carve out the pay rates/types in the JCBA from being used in the ISL. The UAL MEC has proposed the same, yet the CAL MEC says no. Where is the reason? Where is the logic? So lets review...

the DAL MEC agreed to seperate the JCBA from the ISL
the NWA MEC agreed...
the UAL MEC agrees....
the CAL MEC....hell no!! I will take my marbles and go home!!!!


"The Delta and Northwest MECs and their respective representatives agree that any discussions, written or oral proposals or agreements, or other communications of any kind (including any documents, exhibits and data) between or among Delta, ALPA, the Delta MEC and the NWA MEC and their representatives, employees or counsel regarding pay rates on any aircraft type shall not be used nor in any way referred to either directly or indirectly in any seniority list integration negotiation, mediation or arbitration proceeding between the pilot groups for the purpose of attempting to demonstrate that one or more aircraft type(s) should be considered or not considered the substantial equivalent of any other aircraft type(s). "

The CAL MEC was remarkably insistent. While in session and with dozens of witnesses, one representative stated that the JCBA must have what they perceive as this CAL-advantaged SLI piece, and that he would not accept a JCBA without it, and that he was “prepared to work for years under my current contract” if this item is not in the JCBA. Without a doubt to the dozens in attendance, the CAL MEC was unabashedly unashamed of its position on this issue.

ewrbasedpilot

I agree with you 100% on this. The career expectations of someone who is on property and flying in either seat should trump someone on the street. If we start putting furloughed pilots ahead of those on property, what kind of precedent will that set? As Fumes stated, CAL pilots shouldn't be thrown under the bus for what Tilton did to you. Whether you believe it or not, our last CEO, Larry Kellner, whom many now wish would have stayed, wanted nothing to do with UAL, USAirways, or anyone else for that matter. Unfortunately, he was backdoored by the BOD, and asked to leave so the "attorney" could wipe CAL off the face of the planet. And he certainly accomplished that task in record time (and was payed accordingly). That being said, CAL's pilots have done fairly well and shouldn't have to pay for UAL's pre-merger cutbacks. The furloughed UAL pilots will be offered a position at CAL long before UAL will call them back, but what do the CAL pilots get from this other than being hosed later on? Sorry, but it's time to call a spade a spade. If you were an active CA/FO, would you appreciate a furloughed pilot bumping you out of your position? I don't think so. JMHO

A320fumes

It's outright LUDICROUS to suggest that a UAL furloughee should be placed ahead of a working pilot. I am a Summer '05 hire and things could be better, but they are damned good from where I sit in comparison. I personally bid reserve at home, flying no more than 4 days/ month for about 9k/month and less than 100 numbers from my recently lost CA seat. An LOS integration would put me 800 numbers below UAL's most Sr furloughee. I can't even believe they would suggest it.I guess being a furloughed UAL "Brain Surgeon" is better than being a gainly employed CAL Pilot, in UAL's opinion.

Coto Pilot

To say that a furloughed United pilot has no career expectations is absurd. We have guys in their young 30's that will eventually retire (or would have had the merger not occured), number one on the list, as a 747 captain, or on whatever its replacement is. These pilots will have a career lasting over 40 years and by the time its done, their 3 or so years on the street although difficult now, will in the long run be rather minor. United had billions in the bank prior to the merger and was in fact arguably the most viable of the legacy carriers. How does this pilot have lesser "career expectations" than a Continental pilot that was hired 6 years later?

ewrbasedpilot

I'm still waiting to see what CAL is getting out of all of this. UAL wants the highest pay, the best integration, and keeps their name. We get to keep our paintjob. For a merger of equals, the scale sure seems tilted to one side............. I think if they start putting furloughed pilots ahead of any active pilot, they're going to have some major problems.

SpecialTracking

Please give me a specific, factual, reference pointing to the issue that a CAL pilot would be bumped out of a position due to the insertion of a UAL in the seniority list? Have you read the Transition Agreement?

Speak the truth my son.

ewrbasedpilot

Ask a TWA pilot about career expections when AMR hired them after the buyout. They're on the street, and probably won't be called back for many more years, if at all. To say that furloughed pilots expectations to retire #1 is accurate, is a bit off. Our #1 FA THOUGHT she'd be number one forever, but with the combined forces she'll be #5. Yep, from what we've heard, she's no longer the queen bee................and supposedly the #1 FA at UAL was hired in 1949. I guess some people NEVER get a life........ And how is it the most "viable" legacy carrier just about went under two or three years ago? Just wondering............