Understanding UAL Pilot Groups
01-26-2011, 05:58 PM
#1
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Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 521
Understanding UAL Pilot Groups
This is for all the Continental pilots. United has many groups and “numbers” in our ranks. Here is a guide to help you figure out what the numbers mean, and what our various groups are about. Some UAL pilots might not like it, but here’s how I break down our pilot group….
1978-79 hires – The last time United hired pilots based on merit.
570 – A group of pilots hired in 1985 as United was trying to break the union. They all agreed to scab (in writing) and were trained and sent home. Their job was to cross the picket line when the strike was called. ALPA got a hold of them, and most did not cross (although they emboldened the CEO and gave him what he thought was a tool to win the strike). Since they needed a lot of people (and fast), they ended up with some nut jobs. (Many pilots of the era who wanted to work for UAL stayed away, not wanting to be scabs). Most of these pilots were young, and entered a very mature work force. They upgraded quickly, and many will have over 25 years as heavy Captains. They have had the best careers of any United pilot since the 1960’s (late 60’s and 70’s era pilots furloughed, 20 year Captain upgrade, etc.), but these pilots will whine all day long about how bad they have it (even in the presence of double furloughees). They see themselves heroes of a strike that they helped cause, and are generally disliked among other United pilots (this may be a surprise to them but, whenever the number 570 comes up in the cockpit, you can expect a long list of complaints against them). Like any group, there are some really good guys and gals that are 570’s. They’re not all bad.
539 – This group was hired during the strike. United pilots were walking the picket line, and these guys came to training and tried really hard to scab. They simply could not finish training soon enough. Some were told (by ALPA) that they could train, but they should refuse to turn a wheel (like the 570). Most line pilots are wary of the 539, since their presence once again emboldened the CEO. You can tell a 539 by the fact that he was hired in 1985 and has an ALPA pin, but does not have a “battle star” on it. We will never know what they were going to do.
Scabs – These guys are scum of the earth. There are wife beaters, pedophiles, felons, etc. You do not shake their hand, you don’t have a beer with them. Scabs don’t have an ALPA pin on their tie (at UAL we don’t make “eye contact”, we make “tie contact”). You never want to make the mistake of talking to a scab (especially around other United pilots). If you see a pilot hired in 1985 or sooner, and they don’t have a battle star….they probably tried to scab and just didn’t finish training. They are not considered scabs, but they aren’t “good guys” either.
(As a side note….United pilots never forgive a scab. When you die, your status in the book changes to “dead”, but you’re still a scab. We will get a book together of the current CAL scabs. YOU ARE NOT FORGIVEN!!).
Eastern pilots – These are some of the best guys on the property. United hired about 600 Eastern pilots, and it was the best thing they ever did. I don’t know how Eastern did it, but they hired really great people who are fun to be around, and can fly an airplane. I’ll never know why Delta didn’t opt to pick up a bunch of these guys…..their loss.
Pan Am pilots – Most of these guys were older, and have retired. Many of the ones that are left had to be hired by United after the demise of their carrier. These are also very good people. Some do think that they should have their 1977 seniority, and be #1 on the current UAL list (even though they were hired in 1990). They base this on the fact that we acquired some Pan Am routes in the 1980’s, and they feel like they have ownership of those routes. Not a big deal, and once again they are GREAT.
Bucket people – United has several “buckets” that they hire from. “My dad worked here”, “Interns”, “I’m not a white male”, “I was a flight attendant”. These folks can be good or bad. One thing for sure, they found a short cut that let them get out of “paying their dues”. It’s hard to see a guy with 10,000 hours sitting next to a person with 500 hours of 152 time when you’re waiting in the interview room.
Some of the “bucket people” were hired by demand of the federal government. You don’t have to be a white male to fly a plane….but when you demand that 10% of the workforce be from affirmative action candidates, and the number of qualified applicants in the hiring pool does not contain enough people….you lower the standard. We have GREAT affirmative action pilots, and we have some that never would have gotten the job if the EEOC hadn’t gotten involved.
The interns are another interesting group. These are very bright people who were going to make it to the majors. United simply plucked some of these folks up a little too soon. When you aren’t allowed to build experience early on, something is missing. It’s hard to define, but some of these folks would have been better off building their time before moving up to the mainline. Many of these guys are great, but you will see a sense of entitlement in this group that is a little more noticeable than with other UAL pilots. Don’t expect them to do many walk arounds, and do expect some condescending attitudes. (An interesting side note….in 1995 United hired 100 interns out of 1,000 new hires..in 1997 they hired 5 out of 1,000. That says a lot about how United feels about the interns.)
Late 1990’s – Sometime around 1995, United started hiring BIG. Times were good, and upgrade time was a short as 2.5 years. Heavy Captain (767) went as low as 8 years. This is the time when UAL was drawing a lot of good people. I saw classes with UPS, FEDEX, and Southwest guys regularly. When contract 2000 hit, we were at the top of the world. Unfortunately, it didn’t last long. That leads us to our final groups…
2172 – After 911, United parked our 737-200’s, 727’s, DC-10’s, etc. We furloughed 2,172 of our best pilots. These folks came to us with a promise of prosperity, but were dealt a cruel hand. They were out for several years, then were called back.
1450 – When the recalls were done, we hired a little in 2007. Gas skyrocketed and United management hedged miserably (while SWA was posting profits solely on hedging, UAL lost 1 Billion when we hedged high and the price of oil plummeted). The result of this downturn was that we furloughed 1,450 pilots. Many of the 2172 had left good jobs to try UAL again, only to be screwed over. These are great guys and gals who have been abused more than anyone….but don’t try to convince a 570 of that!
Well, these are most of our different "groups". Let me know if I forgot any. If a CAL guy wants to chime in and let us know about any different groups on your side...I would be glad to hear from you.
I'm sure this thread won't cause too much trouble
1978-79 hires – The last time United hired pilots based on merit.
570 – A group of pilots hired in 1985 as United was trying to break the union. They all agreed to scab (in writing) and were trained and sent home. Their job was to cross the picket line when the strike was called. ALPA got a hold of them, and most did not cross (although they emboldened the CEO and gave him what he thought was a tool to win the strike). Since they needed a lot of people (and fast), they ended up with some nut jobs. (Many pilots of the era who wanted to work for UAL stayed away, not wanting to be scabs). Most of these pilots were young, and entered a very mature work force. They upgraded quickly, and many will have over 25 years as heavy Captains. They have had the best careers of any United pilot since the 1960’s (late 60’s and 70’s era pilots furloughed, 20 year Captain upgrade, etc.), but these pilots will whine all day long about how bad they have it (even in the presence of double furloughees). They see themselves heroes of a strike that they helped cause, and are generally disliked among other United pilots (this may be a surprise to them but, whenever the number 570 comes up in the cockpit, you can expect a long list of complaints against them). Like any group, there are some really good guys and gals that are 570’s. They’re not all bad.
539 – This group was hired during the strike. United pilots were walking the picket line, and these guys came to training and tried really hard to scab. They simply could not finish training soon enough. Some were told (by ALPA) that they could train, but they should refuse to turn a wheel (like the 570). Most line pilots are wary of the 539, since their presence once again emboldened the CEO. You can tell a 539 by the fact that he was hired in 1985 and has an ALPA pin, but does not have a “battle star” on it. We will never know what they were going to do.
Scabs – These guys are scum of the earth. There are wife beaters, pedophiles, felons, etc. You do not shake their hand, you don’t have a beer with them. Scabs don’t have an ALPA pin on their tie (at UAL we don’t make “eye contact”, we make “tie contact”). You never want to make the mistake of talking to a scab (especially around other United pilots). If you see a pilot hired in 1985 or sooner, and they don’t have a battle star….they probably tried to scab and just didn’t finish training. They are not considered scabs, but they aren’t “good guys” either.
(As a side note….United pilots never forgive a scab. When you die, your status in the book changes to “dead”, but you’re still a scab. We will get a book together of the current CAL scabs. YOU ARE NOT FORGIVEN!!).
Eastern pilots – These are some of the best guys on the property. United hired about 600 Eastern pilots, and it was the best thing they ever did. I don’t know how Eastern did it, but they hired really great people who are fun to be around, and can fly an airplane. I’ll never know why Delta didn’t opt to pick up a bunch of these guys…..their loss.
Pan Am pilots – Most of these guys were older, and have retired. Many of the ones that are left had to be hired by United after the demise of their carrier. These are also very good people. Some do think that they should have their 1977 seniority, and be #1 on the current UAL list (even though they were hired in 1990). They base this on the fact that we acquired some Pan Am routes in the 1980’s, and they feel like they have ownership of those routes. Not a big deal, and once again they are GREAT.
Bucket people – United has several “buckets” that they hire from. “My dad worked here”, “Interns”, “I’m not a white male”, “I was a flight attendant”. These folks can be good or bad. One thing for sure, they found a short cut that let them get out of “paying their dues”. It’s hard to see a guy with 10,000 hours sitting next to a person with 500 hours of 152 time when you’re waiting in the interview room.
Some of the “bucket people” were hired by demand of the federal government. You don’t have to be a white male to fly a plane….but when you demand that 10% of the workforce be from affirmative action candidates, and the number of qualified applicants in the hiring pool does not contain enough people….you lower the standard. We have GREAT affirmative action pilots, and we have some that never would have gotten the job if the EEOC hadn’t gotten involved.
The interns are another interesting group. These are very bright people who were going to make it to the majors. United simply plucked some of these folks up a little too soon. When you aren’t allowed to build experience early on, something is missing. It’s hard to define, but some of these folks would have been better off building their time before moving up to the mainline. Many of these guys are great, but you will see a sense of entitlement in this group that is a little more noticeable than with other UAL pilots. Don’t expect them to do many walk arounds, and do expect some condescending attitudes. (An interesting side note….in 1995 United hired 100 interns out of 1,000 new hires..in 1997 they hired 5 out of 1,000. That says a lot about how United feels about the interns.)
Late 1990’s – Sometime around 1995, United started hiring BIG. Times were good, and upgrade time was a short as 2.5 years. Heavy Captain (767) went as low as 8 years. This is the time when UAL was drawing a lot of good people. I saw classes with UPS, FEDEX, and Southwest guys regularly. When contract 2000 hit, we were at the top of the world. Unfortunately, it didn’t last long. That leads us to our final groups…
2172 – After 911, United parked our 737-200’s, 727’s, DC-10’s, etc. We furloughed 2,172 of our best pilots. These folks came to us with a promise of prosperity, but were dealt a cruel hand. They were out for several years, then were called back.
1450 – When the recalls were done, we hired a little in 2007. Gas skyrocketed and United management hedged miserably (while SWA was posting profits solely on hedging, UAL lost 1 Billion when we hedged high and the price of oil plummeted). The result of this downturn was that we furloughed 1,450 pilots. Many of the 2172 had left good jobs to try UAL again, only to be screwed over. These are great guys and gals who have been abused more than anyone….but don’t try to convince a 570 of that!
Well, these are most of our different "groups". Let me know if I forgot any. If a CAL guy wants to chime in and let us know about any different groups on your side...I would be glad to hear from you.
I'm sure this thread won't cause too much trouble
01-26-2011, 06:41 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: 737 Captain
Posts: 374
Whew!...I fall under your "good guys" of the late 90's. I'm actually a UAL guy without any number/label/etc. Here's the deal though. While I DO agree with a lot of your assessments. That's all they are. YOUR assessments. With the exception of our non-union scab types, all of these groups are gonna have to be united to achieve OUR JCBA. In fact, I believe a particular 570 is working for us to achieve this. I don't know what good dividing us any more than we already are is going to do to help this goal. This is my 3rd airline and I can tell you all carriers have their "groups". Now is NOT the time to divide this group.
01-26-2011, 07:24 PM
#6
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
Originally Posted by uaav8r
Whew!...I fall under your "good guys" of the late 90's. I'm actually a UAL guy without any number/label/etc. Here's the deal though. While I DO agree with a lot of your assessments. That's all they are. YOUR assessments. With the exception of our non-union scab types, all of these groups are gonna have to be united to achieve OUR JCBA. In fact, I believe a particular 570 is working for us to achieve this. I don't know what good dividing us any more than we already are is going to do to help this goal. This is my 3rd airline and I can tell you all carriers have their "groups". Now is NOT the time to divide this group.
Oh, wait, it's been shut down.............
Couldn't resist.
Lee
01-26-2011, 08:23 PM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Trying not to crash
Posts: 1,260
Originally Posted by untied
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]
We have GREAT affirmative action pilots, and we have some that never would have gotten the job if the EEOC hadn’t gotten involved.
We have GREAT affirmative action pilots, and we have some that never would have gotten the job if the EEOC hadn’t gotten involved.
Sure, there are people who slipped through the cracks. But no one can deny that aviation was, in those times (and still is, in a way) the poster child conservative, white, male industry.
To say that affirmative action wasn't needed back then is blindly ignoring the truth- that the playing field was NOT level.
The only reason I posted this is that it's insulting to those who aren't white males, who worked their butts off as much if not more than anyone else, and are great pilots; but yet are lumped into a group with people who aren't qualified for the position.
There are just as many unqualified "good old boys" who's dad was the chief pilot, etc, employed at major airlines as there are unqualified pilots from ANY group.
01-26-2011, 10:03 PM
#8
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Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
Originally Posted by untied
....
1978-79 hires – The last time United hired pilots based on merit.....
1978-79 hires – The last time United hired pilots based on merit.....
1. The above line is bull****. My new hire class was packed with talented, experienced and highly qualified pilots. The guys I typically fly with are Captains who were hired in the mid 90's. 99.9 percent of them were hired on merit and deserved the job.
2. Having spent a long time as a commuter puke, I watched people get hired all over the industry who I wouldn't let drive my car, let alone fly my kids around. One particular operator of shiny jets comes to mind.
Other than that, your post made for entertaining reading.
2172
01-27-2011, 02:05 AM
#9
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Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 134
By and large, the UA group is very diverse and I have heard the CAL list is even less homogenous. but rather than view it as a negative, I see it as a microcosm of the United States. Americans are a hodgepodge that somehow makes it work and uses its' diversity to form an entity that is stronger rather than weaker.
E Pluribus Unum. Out of many, one.
E Pluribus Unum. Out of many, one.
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