Let's keep our eye on the ball...
 

This forum is quickly dissolving into "my crank's bigger than yours " and similar mindless acrimony. It will become a worthless pi$$ing medium if we let it.

It doesn't matter that UAL had a gazillion widebodies and 10,000+ pilots at one time. It doesn't matter that CAL was a successful and growing international entity with quick upgrades, younger hot FAs, etc etc. Those topics are fairly subjective and will be dealt with in the JSLI by our MECs and our hired guns. Once we get an industry leading contract we can resume polishing our helmets and pontificating about the good old days over beers while on layovers.

None of us can do anything about this merger, it's done. The camel has already left a large fetid steamer in the tent.

In the interim I submit that we would all be better served if the level of discourse was elevated and we keep the dialog centered on what's important to all of us collectively and what gets us the contract we deserve ($$$). A contract which gets all of our brothers back on the property and keeps our flying in house. Let's pay attention to what is important to ALL of us. It sounds dorky and sophomoric, but we're now all UNITED pilots irrespective of what trajectory we thought we had at date of hire.

The "innernets" has provided us with a phenomenal device to disseminate information and to share views and ideas. But if we have to slog through bushels of crap to find the useful tidbits than this forum is worthless and will further divide us and diminish our strength.

Our enemy is management which gives our flying away, and keeps us in servitude. Our enemy is Delta, AMR, USAirways etc. The enemy is the Death Star Alliance.

We are at a crucial point in airline labor history. Information, awareness and solidarity will serve us well. Anything less will only serve our enemies.

Son, you pretty much just summed up EXACTLY what the majority on the UAL MEC are saying about why they shut down that fetid cesspool otherwise known as the UAL MEC forum.

Them are some wise words!

'Course, just me talkin'...others may (and likely will) disagree.

I agree with the last half of your post regarding moving forward but you were fast out if the gate ripping on the Pre United United while blowing yourself. You are right that UAL had a "Gazillion" wide bodies once Even though we parked a bunch we still have quite the imbalance in that department today. We once had 3 year captains 10 years ago and then that came to a grinding halt as you will soon experience as well so don't get too full of yourself. Now that the dick measuring is over let's keep in mind who the "enemy" is. Management and our competition.

What did I miss? I thought we were keeping our eye on the ball. Reading some of the posts about other mergers, this one seems to be doing quite well. Intraweb wise, that is...

Yeah, like the younger, hot F/As...:cool:

I'm pretty sure that oldmako is a 'legacy' UA pilot. That you would mistake his words for something you'd 'expect' to hear from a CAL pilot only speaks to the truth of his words. I agree with him!

Yes, that's what they "said." (cough)

On the other hand, IMHO, it looked like the heat was getting a little too hot in the kitchen for some of the cockroaches on the MEC and they panicked. Shuttering the official forum did absolutely nothing to help maintain our eye on the ball as the real dirty laundry is now being aired elsewhere.

I agree with oldmako: at the end of the day the enemy is not our fellow pilots.

I've said it before, often; for me and a lot of others, the UAL forum was entertainment mostly. And there were a TON of pilots that had no idea how to even access it. The Vocal Majority whom frequented it were mostly venting, pontificating, opining, chest-pounding and saber-rattling. There was, for sure, some good info there occasionally, but I don't think that outweighed the negative impact the aforementioned venting, etc had, and potentially had. Pure and simple, management used it to keep their finger on the pulse of UAL's pilots. They wouldn't hesitate to use it against us, or use it again.

The MEC has to treat a lot of info as if it's public if it's on the forum, and thereby keep it under wraps until it's fit for public consumption. Management loves it because silence fosters rumor-mongering, and management has always believed that a good juicy rumor, born of speculation and wild imagination, is a great way to divide any employee group.

I'm not an MEC member, sympathizer for any one of the categories of UAL pilots, as were so succinctly yet so incompletely and inaccurately described on another thread, or manager, instructor, or anything other than a 24 year UAL pilot who's seen more crap EVERYWHERE that the guy who cleans out the horse stalls. I'm probably in some group or another, but the one I thought I was in wasn't even listed.

While our MEC has made it's mistakes just like everyone has and they're not perfect, they are without a doubt doing the best they can for every old/young/narrow/wide/junior/senior/furloughed UAL pilot. There's a lot of truth to the old saying, "you can't please all the people all of the time", so there will always be some who believe their own or someone else's conspiracy theory, but then again, if they think it's so ℉℧℃ƙℹɳ easy, maybe they should run for an MEC position and fix everything.

Really, we're either part of the problem or part of the solution. The forum was part of the problem a lot more than it was part of the solution. I'll miss the entertainment but not very much.

TW

TW,

I would have to disagree with regards to shutting down a means of pilots communicating amongst themselves. I think it hurts in the long run. JMHO.

Now as to the legal ramifications of having an MEC sanctioned forum, I'll give you one there. I can definitely see that side of the coin.

Fact is, many lurked on the forum, which was far from all the pilots. Nonetheless, it was an avenue for communication. How one chose to value a post is not any different than this forum. Take it for what you will. Value the position or information with whatever grain of salt you choose to.

If the MEC is hoping that shutting down the forum will somehow increase meeting attendance, well that is a pipe dream. Granted, LCO slugs aren't doing 10 day off reserve/95 hour months anymore. But, folks are wrung out still. Seems the same folks always attend the meetings. They can run the agenda, like it or not.

Seems the cell phone or email is the only way to be vocal with your LEC. It is what it is. Attempts to put meetings in an internet format will never come to be. Too many legal hurdles.

The forum was never going to solve anything but did have some useful purpose many a time. What is fact is that now those that at least cared about what was going on, no matter how wrong in their opinion, aren't connected.

That leaves you with the majority of pilots that really have no idea what is going on, by their own doing (apathy), and those that just now get a sterilized MEC email update, voting for what?

MEC now operates in a controlled environment. Information is only that they approve and endorse. What does that sound like?

And, they have done nothing with regards to pilots getting together and spouting whatever they want. Just no MEC guidelines regarding the new forum. Which by the way is quite civil.

While the MEC has no legal issue with that forum since it is not sponsored, the fact is it is no different than 2172.com was regarding mgmt getting the info.

Stalemate.

Frats,
Lee

I don't think the intent of shutting down the forum was to increase meeting attendance, but to try to minimize the restlessness that turns into rumors and goes from there. There was enough stuff there that we'd all rather not share with management. Unfortunately, that was a place where you couldn't speak your mind without speaking it to management too.

True, the forum was different things to different people. I honestly believe that there were some credible sources there, but you had to have a feel for separating the crap from the non-crap. No small feat there.

I mentioned the Family Awareness committee in an earlier post somewhere. While not a very active committee at the moment, at least not much that's apparent to the majority, it will be an important part of the communication network among pilots, especially as negotiations drag on and get more contentious. As you and I and I hope everyone else that reads this knows, the FamAware committee is an integral part of the Strike Preparedness committee, and the more pilots that know that fact, the better. The SPC will rely on the network of FamAware, and it will be instrumental in communicating credible information with pilots, and not just current UA. but CO as well.

And in fact, FamAware IS a place where pilots can get together and spout, via the Family Gatherings side of it. Beer, pizza, *****ing: like a layover but no 12 hour rule! You might want to check it out on alpa.org.

Would mind PMing me some info on the new forum? I don't know about it yet.

C/B

TW

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but........

Had a CAL crew follow us through security in NRT a couple months back. They were ALL as big and as old as my Mom.....just like ours.

Sorry to disappoint.

Did they each have their 12 cat's in tow??

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I guess at UAL, the ultra long haul goes to really JUNIOR F/A's? Don't think so............ I will say that I've had some extremely attractive young ladies on my domestic flights recently. Most of our "hotties" are on reserve, so chances are you won't see them on the long haul stuff........they're getting the "unproductive" BOS turns. I don't think we have any F/A's over 80 though. Do you? (I'm still trying to figure out how someone that old can effectively evacuate a plane. Most people over 67 or so have a hard time even staying awake......:p)

The old MEC Forum was closed because the UAL MEC could not control the message and a few "home truths" were being aired as the factions became ever more split. This was the same group that recently all signed a "Unity Letter!"

The pilots at UAL, and especially those on the Forum, don't want anything other than what everyone wants: an industry leading contract.

Unfortunately, some of the current MEC members believe that is only possible if they gag their own dues paying members from ANY dissent. It is horse hockey, and is a distraction from both WHO (the JNC and MCs) are going to get than contract and WHAT (political infighting and maneuvering for control of the current UAL MEC and future Joint MEC and Joint MEC Officer positions) is going on within the MEC itself.

It is easy for EVERYONE to sing the praises of UNITY from the highest soapbox they can find, but it is much harder to swallow your pride and do what is going to be best for your entire pilot group when you spend all your time on intramural fighting within your own MEC. THAT is the reality of what is going on at BOTH MECs!!! Yet BOTH are calling for unity from their rank and file!?!

I laud the intent of the OP, which I believe everyone shares. However, it is clear that there is great unease and some outright despair at the level of service and general activities of our respective MECs. It appears that BOTH groups play fast and loose with the truth, with how they conduct their business (including schedules) and how each intends to proceed through these career defining negotiations.

The UAL MEC chose to silence any dissent so they could "clean up" (MEC member quote) their pilot groups discussions. THAT did not STOP the dissent, it merely moved it to somewhere else, where they have no control over it.....and the issues remain unresolved and the MEC moves along relatively unfettered. Some people believe that is still an issue. Others believe that it is all part and parcel of one factions design to create a win-win forthemselces, regardless of the outcome.

In the meantime, we simply have to wait to see what unfolds, and hope against hope they really are ALL working in our best interests.....because based on results from these people, hope is ALL WE HAVE in tue absence of a voice or any input.

That and a well crafted transition agreement.

I believe that it IS important for the MEC(s) to control OUR message! If we want to 'win' this war with management, we'd better get our collective heads in order. IF we want to win, we CANNOT let them know what we're thinking! We have to hide that pulse from them... IMO we should pump LOTS of disinformation in their direction to keep them from aiming as low as possible. While honorable on it's face, your incessant 'exposing of the truth' makes that kind of hard. I'm not saying that the MEC should lie to the pilot group, but I think we're all mature enough to let them do what has to be done to secure the best CBA possible. Maybe we should all step back a little and let the process work. Of course there are those who will always believe in the 'great conspiracy' and that there is a cabal of MEC members who are out to screw the junior/senior/widebody/narrowbody/furloughed/old/young/etc.. pilots -- and there's nothing I can do to ease their suffering.... While pilots are typically smart, savvy individuals, as a group we are a bunch of dumb@sses.

Chris,

With the utmost respect for your belief that what ANY pilot currently says is important to management, I have to disagree.

Now, in about (fill in the blank) months, IF we are VERY CLOSE to agreement on everything except pay and/or scope (which is what I think most people expect), and we are ANYWHERE CLOSE to requesting a cooling off period from the NMB, THEN management will get the message...LOUD AND CLEAR...from ALL PILOTS that we are ready, and have been for quite some time, to shut this place down. We have had enough of making every revolving door management stoolie into a multi-millionaire and creating corporate profits (and MASSIVE executive bonuses) from OUR decade of sacrifices.

Today, no-one is paying ANY attention to what we are saying here or on the other Forum, other than keeping an eye on whether there are any concerted actions being discussed.

When the time comes, remind me to get on a plane to DCA/IAD, because I want to walk arm in arm with you on the picket line. THAT message is THE ONLY ONE they care about, not what line pilots think about the actions of a few out of touch MEC members who think they are above having their actions questioned.

Fraternally and respectfully,

Neil

:eek:

Oops, too late!

Funny how everyone was unhappy when I complained about it when it was unveiled, yet people are starting to realize just how poorly crafted it was for UAL pilots. All part of the OJT process, I guess, so let's hope he got it out of his system!????

:o

TW,

Sent you a PM. Sorry for the delay. New site is UAL Pilots Forum - Index page and is open to CAL pilots as well. There are a few there already.

As with any medium, especially electronic, be careful what you post as always. I'm sure mgmt toads are already getting info on it....what else is new.

BTW, I'm on a vol furlough so I don't have an active interest. Merely a vested one. And, the hope that one day UAL will be a place I want to work for again.

Frats,
Lee

PS: You DO NOT have to enter your cell phone during registration, just bypass the pop up warning. You DO have to register with your real name. No hiding behind screen names.

cadet,

Not sure if I'm missing some sarcasm in your post. Do you really think the transition agreement was well crafted? Have you really read it thinking about some of the timing termination provisions in the agreement? The agreement has many mgmt weighted options. Time is on their side.

Frats,
Lee

From my 'never been at the table' perspective, the company is still trying to figure out IF they want to negotiate with us and deliver a CBA or IF they want to stall and push us to the edge. We shouldn't be looking like a bunch of disorganized individuals who are busy shooting at each other. IMO, our collective stance is very much an issue now. Again, I don't know jack ****e, I'm just saying what appears to be common sense to me.

**edit addition: If we get to that point, I'll take you up on the picket line offer. I'll even come to ORD too!! Oh, and I'm not sure about the 'arm in arm' thing...people might talk :-)

They already do!!! ;)

Everybody talks about unity until they see the details of the TA. Then they figure out they sold many, usually junior, down the river. If they want unity then they need to worry about all the pilots from top to bottom. I'm not talking about SAYING you are. Proof is in the actions. example...They talk about protecting furloughee rights but in the end they sell them out and we help with health insurance so we can feel better. Pathetic. Unity will only come if we try to be fair to everybody on both sides. ......and yes, i know some will b1tch no matter what.