Late night partying and long commutes
05-06-2011, 06:27 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 786
Late night partying and long commutes
Where are we going with this?
I have half a mind to unsubscribe from my MEC’s blast mails. Please convince me I am reading this wrong and my anger is inappropriately focused, of all places on my UNION MEC CHAIR.
Allow me to explain how my speculative and imaginary “reading between the lines”, culminated in me being angry at ALPA: Apparently one of the company’s lawyer wanabees, probably just recently found out her husband (or more likely girlfriend) has been cheating on her due to her icy frigidness. Her oozing hatred for all things respectable (especially things that don’t bow to her) and the public embarrassment of admitting one too many times that she works in a corporate legal department (one step above public defendant for rapists), welled up and overflowed her dark and greedy hate filled soul. Her attack of the pilots, from whose productivity and wallets her salary is derived, within earshot of a reporter, on a slow news day, got published. Slinging horse hockey - Real original. I’ve long since stopped reading the Chronicle, yet ALPA insures I can’t escape the “story” by bringing it to me on a day off in the form of a blastmail:
“This week, one of Continental/United’s labor lawyers was quoted in the Houston Chronicle saying that fatigue is not a problem here at CAL. Another quote implied that when fatigue does come up, it is the result of “late night partying or a long commute.” This is disturbing on so many fronts it is hard to know where to begin.
First, it is important to note that the lawyer quoted works closely with Flight Operations and deals with contractual and discipline grievance issues with pilots day in and day out. How she can say that fatigue is not a problem is inconceivable. Are their heads so far in the sand that the lawyers advising Flight Operations have not heard our complaints about double pumping reserves, reassignments to FAR limits, red-eyes and just our general understaffing and lousy schedules? Furthermore, any insinuation that fatigue among pilots is a function of late night partying or commuting is insulting to say the least and ignorant at its very core. If this is the attitude prevalent in Flight Operations, and specifically in the department tasked with administering and defending management’s decisions to discipline our pilots, then no pilot can ever expect a fair outcome. Last week I spoke of hypocrisy. This week, in contradiction to their ‘working together’ mantra, we see it brought to a whole new level.”
At first glance you’ll ask, “How in anyone’s skewed logic can you come to the conclusion that this is ALPA’s fault?” Think about it. Is it really that difficult to find people at an airline (especially a major airline) that hate pilots? It's like finding people that work in a hospital that don't like doctors. Pilot’s after all just sit there and get paid. Pilots have layovers in fun places. The lawyers know that the pilots know all the angles. Pilots hide behind the regulations at every turn, while the frustrated company legal staff can do nothing but attempt to provoke the Pilots. The bean counters know that every time there is a cost over run on a flight, like more fuel burned than planned, a Pilot’s hand on the throttles was the cause. Every gate agent knows that if there is an issue that makes a flight late, it was a Pilot that wouldn’t allow the flight to depart on time. Every scheduler knows that when they have to junior man, it was because too many Pilots called in sick. Mechanics know that Pilots break airplanes. The list goes on and on. The people we work for hate pilots and many of the people we work with hate pilots. I neither need, nor want my union to point that out to me.
Raising the level of anger of the pilot group is almost as cliché’ as a poser in the legal department claiming that pilots can only be fatigued by self infliction. Instead I want my union to embark on a course of action. Where’s the road map and why is it taking so long to start the car? My bags have been in the trunk since CAL ALPA BROUGHT ME CONTRACT ’02. We all KNOW, so what are you going to do about it?
I have half a mind to unsubscribe from my MEC’s blast mails. Please convince me I am reading this wrong and my anger is inappropriately focused, of all places on my UNION MEC CHAIR.
Allow me to explain how my speculative and imaginary “reading between the lines”, culminated in me being angry at ALPA: Apparently one of the company’s lawyer wanabees, probably just recently found out her husband (or more likely girlfriend) has been cheating on her due to her icy frigidness. Her oozing hatred for all things respectable (especially things that don’t bow to her) and the public embarrassment of admitting one too many times that she works in a corporate legal department (one step above public defendant for rapists), welled up and overflowed her dark and greedy hate filled soul. Her attack of the pilots, from whose productivity and wallets her salary is derived, within earshot of a reporter, on a slow news day, got published. Slinging horse hockey - Real original. I’ve long since stopped reading the Chronicle, yet ALPA insures I can’t escape the “story” by bringing it to me on a day off in the form of a blastmail:
“This week, one of Continental/United’s labor lawyers was quoted in the Houston Chronicle saying that fatigue is not a problem here at CAL. Another quote implied that when fatigue does come up, it is the result of “late night partying or a long commute.” This is disturbing on so many fronts it is hard to know where to begin.
First, it is important to note that the lawyer quoted works closely with Flight Operations and deals with contractual and discipline grievance issues with pilots day in and day out. How she can say that fatigue is not a problem is inconceivable. Are their heads so far in the sand that the lawyers advising Flight Operations have not heard our complaints about double pumping reserves, reassignments to FAR limits, red-eyes and just our general understaffing and lousy schedules? Furthermore, any insinuation that fatigue among pilots is a function of late night partying or commuting is insulting to say the least and ignorant at its very core. If this is the attitude prevalent in Flight Operations, and specifically in the department tasked with administering and defending management’s decisions to discipline our pilots, then no pilot can ever expect a fair outcome. Last week I spoke of hypocrisy. This week, in contradiction to their ‘working together’ mantra, we see it brought to a whole new level.”
At first glance you’ll ask, “How in anyone’s skewed logic can you come to the conclusion that this is ALPA’s fault?” Think about it. Is it really that difficult to find people at an airline (especially a major airline) that hate pilots? It's like finding people that work in a hospital that don't like doctors. Pilot’s after all just sit there and get paid. Pilots have layovers in fun places. The lawyers know that the pilots know all the angles. Pilots hide behind the regulations at every turn, while the frustrated company legal staff can do nothing but attempt to provoke the Pilots. The bean counters know that every time there is a cost over run on a flight, like more fuel burned than planned, a Pilot’s hand on the throttles was the cause. Every gate agent knows that if there is an issue that makes a flight late, it was a Pilot that wouldn’t allow the flight to depart on time. Every scheduler knows that when they have to junior man, it was because too many Pilots called in sick. Mechanics know that Pilots break airplanes. The list goes on and on. The people we work for hate pilots and many of the people we work with hate pilots. I neither need, nor want my union to point that out to me.
Raising the level of anger of the pilot group is almost as cliché’ as a poser in the legal department claiming that pilots can only be fatigued by self infliction. Instead I want my union to embark on a course of action. Where’s the road map and why is it taking so long to start the car? My bags have been in the trunk since CAL ALPA BROUGHT ME CONTRACT ’02. We all KNOW, so what are you going to do about it?
05-06-2011, 09:24 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Left Seat, Toyota Tacoma
Posts: 593
I haven't read the version that I see in the original post.
The "late night partying or long commute" bs was from one of CAL management's lawyers ([email protected]).
Absolute, unequivocal BS. It's hard to believe that she is actually a HR lawyer who gets to see all of our union grievances against double pumping reserves and creating an unsafe schedule for pilots. Yet she choses to eschew Smisek's logic of blaming pilots for partying all night. Wow. I challenge Ms. Labove to work 16 hours, sleep for 4, and then work for another 16 hours. And do that for 5 or 7 days straight.
Jay Pierce (CAL MEC) put out this statement earlier today:
"Last week I wrote about comments our CEO Jeff Smisek made in a recent Fortune magazine article, stating his belief that our pay would never return to 2000 levels even though executive compensation has increased over 30 percent since that time. I want to thank those of you who took the time to e-mail me following that update. It is nice to get positive feedback occasionally. This week, one of Continental/United’s labor lawyers was quoted in the Houston Chronicle saying that fatigue is not a problem here at CAL. Another quote implied that when fatigue does come up, it is the result of “late night partying or a long commute.” This is disturbing on so many fronts it is hard to know where to begin.
First, it is important to note that the lawyer quoted works closely with Flight Operations and deals with contractual and discipline grievance issues with pilots day in and day out. How she can say that fatigue is not a problem is inconceivable. Are their heads so far in the sand that the lawyers advising Flight Operations have not heard our complaints about double pumping reserves, reassignments to FAR limits, red-eyes and just our general understaffing and lousy schedules? Furthermore, any insinuation that fatigue among pilots is a function of late night partying or commuting is insulting to say the least and ignorant at its very core. If this is the attitude prevalent in Flight Operations, and specifically in the department tasked with administering and defending management’s decisions to discipline our pilots, then no pilot can ever expect a fair outcome. Last week I spoke of hypocrisy. This week, in contradiction to their ‘working together’ mantra, we see it brought to a whole new level.
This afternoon I placed a call to Senior Vice President of HR, Mike Bonds and told him that such attacks on our professionalism are unacceptable and a retraction is warranted. We will not tolerate it."
The "late night partying or long commute" bs was from one of CAL management's lawyers ([email protected]).
Absolute, unequivocal BS. It's hard to believe that she is actually a HR lawyer who gets to see all of our union grievances against double pumping reserves and creating an unsafe schedule for pilots. Yet she choses to eschew Smisek's logic of blaming pilots for partying all night. Wow. I challenge Ms. Labove to work 16 hours, sleep for 4, and then work for another 16 hours. And do that for 5 or 7 days straight.
Jay Pierce (CAL MEC) put out this statement earlier today:
"Last week I wrote about comments our CEO Jeff Smisek made in a recent Fortune magazine article, stating his belief that our pay would never return to 2000 levels even though executive compensation has increased over 30 percent since that time. I want to thank those of you who took the time to e-mail me following that update. It is nice to get positive feedback occasionally. This week, one of Continental/United’s labor lawyers was quoted in the Houston Chronicle saying that fatigue is not a problem here at CAL. Another quote implied that when fatigue does come up, it is the result of “late night partying or a long commute.” This is disturbing on so many fronts it is hard to know where to begin.
First, it is important to note that the lawyer quoted works closely with Flight Operations and deals with contractual and discipline grievance issues with pilots day in and day out. How she can say that fatigue is not a problem is inconceivable. Are their heads so far in the sand that the lawyers advising Flight Operations have not heard our complaints about double pumping reserves, reassignments to FAR limits, red-eyes and just our general understaffing and lousy schedules? Furthermore, any insinuation that fatigue among pilots is a function of late night partying or commuting is insulting to say the least and ignorant at its very core. If this is the attitude prevalent in Flight Operations, and specifically in the department tasked with administering and defending management’s decisions to discipline our pilots, then no pilot can ever expect a fair outcome. Last week I spoke of hypocrisy. This week, in contradiction to their ‘working together’ mantra, we see it brought to a whole new level.
This afternoon I placed a call to Senior Vice President of HR, Mike Bonds and told him that such attacks on our professionalism are unacceptable and a retraction is warranted. We will not tolerate it."
05-07-2011, 05:55 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: 737 CAPT
Posts: 1,882
I find nothing wrong with what Jay Pierce wrote. How is ALPA responsible for the verbal diarrhea of management? How about writing Jay about this. I did late last night and had a response from him in my e-mail this morning. I won't go into it here, but let's just say for now this won't be the end of the partying commuter story.
05-07-2011, 06:08 AM
#5
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: IAH 737 CA
Posts: 690
I hope you are being facetious with some of these "examples". I've never seen a pilot "break an airplane".
Originally Posted by Captain Bligh
Where are we going with this?
............The bean counters know that every time there is a cost over run on a flight, like more fuel burned than planned, a Pilot’s hand on the throttles was the cause. Every gate agent knows that if there is an issue that makes a flight late, it was a Pilot that wouldn’t allow the flight to depart on time. Every scheduler knows that when they have to junior man, it was because too many Pilots called in sick. Mechanics know that Pilots break airplanes........
............The bean counters know that every time there is a cost over run on a flight, like more fuel burned than planned, a Pilot’s hand on the throttles was the cause. Every gate agent knows that if there is an issue that makes a flight late, it was a Pilot that wouldn’t allow the flight to depart on time. Every scheduler knows that when they have to junior man, it was because too many Pilots called in sick. Mechanics know that Pilots break airplanes........
05-07-2011, 06:21 AM
#6
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Interpretation
Originally Posted by EWR73FO
I hope you are being facetious with some of these "examples". I've never seen a pilot "break an airplane".
Gate agents insinuate that pilots 'break' airplanes to accomplish some agenda related to timing of departure. "It's broken, we can't depart; we're talking to maintenance." "Oh wait, now its good to go."
05-07-2011, 06:31 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 707
Originally Posted by EWR73FO
I hope you are being facetious with some of these "examples". I've never seen a pilot "break an airplane".
Of course he is! Hes staing anytime a plane breaks, it was the cause of the pilots (in the mechanics eyes). The only reason it broke cause the pilot was present or else normally it wouldnt have.
05-07-2011, 01:27 PM
#8
Recommend Retention
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Bigfoot
Posts: 1,077
Where do I sign up for some late night partying? With my SIX crossings a month on reserve I haven't had much time for that. But I'm sure that's not why I'm tired... it must be all the extra fun I'm able to have with my enormous amount of disposable income.
05-07-2011, 02:29 PM
#9
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: DEN B737 Captain
Posts: 19
Pay attention everyone! This relatively sublime poke is very telling, it is a small piece of a larger puzzle that is designed to enrage this group to the point of hysteria.
Just when your blood pressure is about to blow the top of your head off the tentative agreement will be presented to you to ponder. 14 days later you will be so utterly ****ed off you won't be able to stand it and you will tell your negotiators that you want to burn the house down. They will throw up their hands and walk away knowing they did their best.
2013 will be a new beginning, a new mec and negotiating team that will try a more reasonable approach.
Does any of this sound familiar? It sure does to my good friends at AA!
No intelligent person would have made those comments, and frankly I got quite a chuckle out of it.
Keep your powder dry and enjoy life.
Just when your blood pressure is about to blow the top of your head off the tentative agreement will be presented to you to ponder. 14 days later you will be so utterly ****ed off you won't be able to stand it and you will tell your negotiators that you want to burn the house down. They will throw up their hands and walk away knowing they did their best.
2013 will be a new beginning, a new mec and negotiating team that will try a more reasonable approach.
Does any of this sound familiar? It sure does to my good friends at AA!
No intelligent person would have made those comments, and frankly I got quite a chuckle out of it.
Keep your powder dry and enjoy life.
Last edited by Ontheleft; 05-07-2011 at 02:34 PM. Reason: spelling
05-07-2011, 03:52 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 786
Fairly solid advice Left! These type of comments are intended to inflame union leadership not necessarily attack the rank and file. Management knows they can put the union leadership in a tight spot that forces their often empty hand. With the exception of the Bethune years, there's never been a shortage of employing this tactic.
"Any pilot that built a $200,000 home in Greensboro, built a monument to his own ego"
"Flight attendants only pour cokes."
These aren't the people that agreed to treat employees with Dignity and Respect, so why try to hold them to that standard? The union wants us to act surprised when they don't treat employees any better than the neighbor's dog. Instead we should bite them, like their neighbor's dog probably does.
I seem to remember a Delta captain that landed an airplane in a remote place because the crew rest bunks were inadequate. The bunks got fixed. The next time you have a good late night party, or cant sleep because the people in the budget hotel room next to the one the company has put you in for your min. rest layover, just be sure to assess if you're really safe to fly.
It will be real interesting to see what useless flight bag sticker or luggage tag they come up with to "put this one to bed". All I can say is CAL ALPA leadership, she's calling you out, so man up.
"Any pilot that built a $200,000 home in Greensboro, built a monument to his own ego"
"Flight attendants only pour cokes."
These aren't the people that agreed to treat employees with Dignity and Respect, so why try to hold them to that standard? The union wants us to act surprised when they don't treat employees any better than the neighbor's dog. Instead we should bite them, like their neighbor's dog probably does.
I seem to remember a Delta captain that landed an airplane in a remote place because the crew rest bunks were inadequate. The bunks got fixed. The next time you have a good late night party, or cant sleep because the people in the budget hotel room next to the one the company has put you in for your min. rest layover, just be sure to assess if you're really safe to fly.
It will be real interesting to see what useless flight bag sticker or luggage tag they come up with to "put this one to bed". All I can say is CAL ALPA leadership, she's calling you out, so man up.
