My apologies; I was unaware of that. It's not the first time I've been wrong and it won't be the last. I think that you and I need to talk offline. You don't have 10 posts so I can't shoot you a PM. Set up a dummy hotmail or gmail account, post the email address here and we can take this offline.

Frats,
Andy

Try Healthcare Premium Reimbursement election and subsequent assessment.

Fine, next time I'll just vote NO you ungrateful jerk.

I hope that CAL's vote was less a crap shoot than UAL's. IIRC, it passed UAL by less than 56%. Not exactly unified support.

He loves me... :)

He loves me not... :(


The very ugly side effects of an inverse relationship between maturity and seniority. :rolleyes:

SP

I understand Old UCAL CA's point of view. Rather than insult him, a much better course of action would be to discuss the topic in terms of what we furloughees view as more constructive actions.
I'll begin by saying that I'd like to see written into the contract that drops the flying caps for all pilots on property once the first pilot gets furloughed. Frankly, that would be a lot more costly to anyone who flies near max hours than paying a medical assessment. At this point, I'd respectfully like to hear Old UCAL CA's response.

Hopefully we can make this a civil exchange for more than a few posts. :)

I believe that every furloughed pilot that took advantage of the furlough fund appreciated what the pilots on the property did for them in paying for medical benefits. That being said, there have been an awful lot of instances where the active pilots screwed the United pilots on the street that didn't have a vote. I know in my case I missed out on a $30,000 lump sum distribution because I came back from furlough a couple of weeks after an arbitrary cutoff date. When you consider that Delta pushed for longevity credit for furloughees as well as not caving on the "no furlough" clause, many of us are out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars because of the votes of our ALPA brothers. Add to this the RJ side letter that allowed the parking of 100 airplanes, it is easy to see why guys are unhappy and concerned about how they will treated in the next contract and SLI.

amen... .

Amen too!!!!!!!!

+1 on that.

Being furloughed, and played as a pawn by the company sucks.....no refuting that. It's the ungrateful few like the j-a$$ above make those of us who voted "yes" think twice.

UFB.

If you look at a COBRA payment assessment as a moment in time, maybe the furloughed guys should kiss the remaining guys feet and say thank you. Sure, it was a generous thing to vote yes.

However, allow me to re-punctuate: Maybe the remainder, aka the "senior group", should have had enough friggin foresight, strategic thought, and honor to stand up for everyone by crafting agreements that favored the entire projected pilot group, not just themselves. So in a way, is it a tax for lacking foresight and being wholly self-serving?

Deleted for TOS Violations

OK, again. Why not just lower the monthly cap on every pilot so that furloughs wouldn't be necessary? That's the way it USED to be and the way that Southwest still does it.
Or would the pilots rather pay the .25% furloughee medical assessment? ... the good news is that only 1/3 of CAL's pilots voted against the assessment.

Didn't UPS and their union do this and the company still balked and furloughed even after the agreement? Point is, no matter what we accomplish as far as agreements, neither l-ual or l-cal mgmt will honor any thing as a legal and binding contract until they are forced to. At least with the assessment, money was going to the pilots that needed it.

I wish that we had this. It's sad, to me, when I see line credit on the WB fleet over 86 and over 89 on the Bus (I believe those are the "Voluntary" max values).

I, for one, have very little control over my schedule. Still, I've only gone over 70 hours three times in the last year and a half.

That's the way it will continue for me, as long as we have one pilot on furlough.

Andy,

For starters, the furloughs at CAL were NOT necessary. Stating the obvious, CAL did not park an entire fleet precipitating it's last round of furloughs. As I stated earlier, it was all a posturing from Flight Ops Mgt thus making the furloughee's their pawns. As any CAL pilot would agree, it was ALL BS. At that time, the staffing model could have ridden with the 147 STILL aboard. The Union showed/proved this information ad nauseam supporting that fact.

Since you took time to comment on what I wrote earlier, I'll once again address it for you......"D.F" asked the question/thus he was reminded that CAL-ALPA (via it's voting membership) opted for the assessment, that's WHAT THEY DID for their furloughs. The situation was NOT perfect, but it was something 'they did'. To be clear.....NO one is asking for a 'pat on the back' by voting yes on the assessment, but when 'someone' egregiously offers snide comments, expect to have it addressed. He may not have a flare for the obvious, but the "facts are the facts", apparently that alludes him.

Plain and simple.....

On the United side, I personally thank every crew I come in contact with for the furlough fund. I was out of work for 14 months and the only way I was able to keep it going was having the COBRA reimbursed. A 6 month emergency fund is all fine and dandy if you have it...but how many people would work a $1400 a month COBRA payment into the equation? The union saved my a$$ on this one and I go out of my way to thank the crews for it.

Just as an aside for the CAL side. I got into a conversation with a guy I used to fly with at another airline. He is a junior lineholder on the 737 and he said his 4 day was bought back from him for training. I was just asking about whether he was available to the schedulers and he said they couldn't use him unless he double dipped...flying on those days where his trip was bought. Is this common occurence on the CAL side? I know you don't have guys furloughed now...but it just struck me as dumb. (He picked up another 3 or 4 day and got paid for both).

Well let's see besides the assessment, guys like me gave dough out of our pockets for the Xmas Gift fund organized by ALPA. Broke buddy of mine was very glad to get that for his kids a couple years ago. Never mind line guys like me not even looking at open time and laughing at JM phone calls during the summers.

I'm as p!ssed off as anyone at Fred's furlough and you have all the empathy in the world for what the worthless ahole did to you. However, you wasting bullets if you hold anger at CAL ALPA for not mitigating the hostage situation the way you like. Quite frankly you come off sounding like a prick. Would you have preferred if ALPA would have given up on 70 seat scope in order to prevent the furloughs? That would of worked out great for all of us....:rolleyes:

From what I'm reading CAL ALPA has been much better with furloughees than UAL ALPA. UAL ALPA took steps after 9/11 that were clearly going to result in additional furloughs. And then there's the way they handled the bond money, denying it to furloughees and retirees.

I haven't talked to any UPS pilots for quite a while but I don't think that they fly as many hours as we do. ... I jumpseated on FedEx a couple of times and I'm VERY GLAD I didn't choose the cargo career path. I'd much rather be furloughed for 8 years than have to live like a freight dog (different strokes for different folks).

Here is how I would envision a furlough mitigation clause.
First, it needs to be in place in a contract well before needing to be implemented.
A clause could have multiple work choices for pilots. Once the first pilot gets furloughed, no pilot on property can work for more than 83 credit hours per month (arbitrary number; adjust as necessary). An unlimited number of pilots can drop down to 50 credit hours per month (another arbitrary number). An unlimited number of pilots can take voluntary leave of absence, offered in varying timeframes - 3 months, 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, 24 months.

Would the company go for it? Companies are Godless money machines (to paraphrase Stephen Colbert's bear fears). If this approach minimizes training cycles - thereby reducing corporate costs - the company will be in favor of such an idea. And I would think that a clause such as this would reduce the company's training costs, thereby saving them money.

Did I read that right you would rather be furloughed for 8 years than work for fedex?

Ever jumpseat on FedEx? Brutal!
You fly for a few hours and then sit most of the night in MEM. Depart MEM just before sunrise and arrive at your destination shortly after sunrise. That kind of flying would take 20+ years off of my life.
To me, that was simply miserable flying; if I were flying there, I'd be ticked off at the world and everyone around me.
There's more to life than money and toys.

It makes a difference thank you. :)

Yep been on fedex. If and when you get back here you might think otherwise.

The first day of indoc at UAL, I was told that I won the jackpot and I would retire a millionaire. I'm sure that I wasn't lied to and that everything will be blue skies and rainbows when I return. :D

I plan on coming back to the first class offered at CAL; should be late spring/early summer. I have no illusions on a Ren & Stimpy Happy Happy Joy Joy existance, especially since I'll have to commute. I just want to get back to flying; I know that's hard for those that have been worked like dogs for a long time to understand.

Understand Andy and wish you nothing but the best! We would love to have all of you guys back.

A sincere thank you for that post.
I know I come across as angry and bitter quite often on these boards toward senior UAL pilots. I'm slowly working that out of my system. I could understand my furlough post-911 and blamed neither management nor the pilots for that - there was no choice in the matter.
Some of the steps taken since then have riled my feathers quite a bit but I am coming to grasp with the fact that being off of property means that I don't matter to many and there was quite a bit of self-preservation (both corporate and personal) that went on through 2004. When I read of near empty 747s flying across the Pacific during SARS, I wasn't sure if there would be a United to go back to. I am very thankful to every UAL pilot on property who kept the ship afloat during the darkest days; I just wish that they had thought what the impact would be on those of us on the streets during some of the decision-making process. To that end, I need to remember that we all think in terms of self-preservation first.

Frats,
Andy

No problem I can understand your frustration on being on the outside looking in and that feeling of no control. From what I see from the avg line pilot you have not been forgotten.

Thank you very much for that information. Some jackwagon on the UAL forums yesterday posted that the pilots on property didn't care about furloughees. I've gotten fairly numb to those kind of comments so it didn't anger me. Obviously, comments like that give one the impression that furloughees are viewed more as a nuisance than a fellow union member/brother. I'm glad to hear that it's less common than current perception among furloughees.

If you'd like to read the thread in question, go to:
ualpilotsforum.org (requires registration)
UAL Pilots Only
UAL Pilots Discussion
Thread: A friendly reminder about our TRO


As I stated earlier, I'm slowly working through the anger. In the last month, I've gone from using ALPO to back to ALPA. Baby steps. :)

W.T.F. I shouldn't have read that other thread.

You're a better man than me Andy. I'll tell you how I'm gonna work through the anger. If I ever meet that mother ****er I'm gonna punch him in the throat.

Hi Andy,
I hope we see you at CAL soon. I've been furloughed and out on the street four times and it never gets any easier. What is difficult to handle is when those who've NEVER been furloughed or without a job say "I know how you feel"................but they DON'T know how you feel unless they've LIVED that before. Many furloughed guys will say they won't "lower" themselves to CAL's horrible lifestyle, flying, etc., but it sure beats unemployment........ANY DAY. Yes, we may have horrible schedules, bad pay, etc., but we have some great people to work with, great airplanes, and make the best with what we have. Let me know if you end up in EWR on the B737 and I'll take you out for a nice dinner when we fly together. Just send me a PM and we'll work from there. frats, ewrbasedpilot

That's what ALPA says in their 2004 Magazine article (p. 15) titled 'Dare Mighty Things'. (A Leaner, Meaner ALPA)

My question is ... How?

I am a furloughed UAL guy as well and junior to Andy.....I will buy the beers. Hats off to you brother......

Thanks much. I'm hoping to not take you up on the offer; TUS-EWR would be a brutal commute. Wife's got one more tour in the AF before retiring so moving's out of the question for 2 1/2 years.