UAL JCBA and AMR/APA rumor
08-03-2011, 09:50 AM
#11
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Interesting development given AMR's problems generating earnings. I'd be very wary of a great contract attached to lousy scope. The contract will get stripped away in bankruptcy, but the scope will remain.
The other effect would be a ratcheting up of costs at UAL and DAL as their pilots clamored for "AA Plus." Then AMR declares, strips the contract and comes out a very lean competitor.
Just connecting dots with the airplane orders, Eagle scope waiver and adding the idea of an unsustainable costs and debt. Sorry to be a "party pooper" but with our economy doing what it is doing, the kind of revenue growth needed to make all of this work out seems highly unlikely.
The UAL deal was a little more transparent as a result of their being first and getting a lot of scrutiny from the press. All of their 737 flying was outsourced, BTW.
Watch The Full Program Online | Can You Afford To Retire? | FRONTLINE | PBS
The other effect would be a ratcheting up of costs at UAL and DAL as their pilots clamored for "AA Plus." Then AMR declares, strips the contract and comes out a very lean competitor.
Just connecting dots with the airplane orders, Eagle scope waiver and adding the idea of an unsustainable costs and debt. Sorry to be a "party pooper" but with our economy doing what it is doing, the kind of revenue growth needed to make all of this work out seems highly unlikely.
The UAL deal was a little more transparent as a result of their being first and getting a lot of scrutiny from the press. All of their 737 flying was outsourced, BTW.
Watch The Full Program Online | Can You Afford To Retire? | FRONTLINE | PBS
08-03-2011, 11:47 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: B767 FO
Posts: 421
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Interesting development given AMR's problems generating earnings. I'd be very wary of a great contract attached to lousy scope. The contract will get stripped away in bankruptcy, but the scope will remain.
The other effect would be a ratcheting up of costs at UAL and DAL as their pilots clamored for "AA Plus." Then AMR declares, strips the contract and comes out a very lean competitor.
Just connecting dots with the airplane orders, Eagle scope waiver and adding the idea of an unsustainable costs and debt. Sorry to be a "party pooper" but with our economy doing what it is doing, the kind of revenue growth needed to make all of this work out seems highly unlikely.
The UAL deal was a little more transparent as a result of their being first and getting a lot of scrutiny from the press. All of their 737 flying was outsourced, BTW.
Watch The Full Program Online | Can You Afford To Retire? | FRONTLINE | PBS
The other effect would be a ratcheting up of costs at UAL and DAL as their pilots clamored for "AA Plus." Then AMR declares, strips the contract and comes out a very lean competitor.
Just connecting dots with the airplane orders, Eagle scope waiver and adding the idea of an unsustainable costs and debt. Sorry to be a "party pooper" but with our economy doing what it is doing, the kind of revenue growth needed to make all of this work out seems highly unlikely.
The UAL deal was a little more transparent as a result of their being first and getting a lot of scrutiny from the press. All of their 737 flying was outsourced, BTW.
Watch The Full Program Online | Can You Afford To Retire? | FRONTLINE | PBS
08-03-2011, 01:36 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,185
[QUOTE=1257;1033364]There are reports that the APA and American mgmt. have agreed on industry leading ~ FedEx payscales.
Obviously since AmEagle is being separated from AMR, scope will also be critical for the American pilots.
The TA is supposed to be out by Oct. '11
Can anyone familiar with an AMR pilot who's been to one of the APA roadshows confirm what APA is advising/releasing?[/QUOTE]
The only mention of something around October was in response to how soon could a TA be offered to the membership? "Maybe as soon as October, or maybe September, if things keep moving along. However all the hard issues are ahead and it could grind to a halt at anytime."
Two (?) weeks later the two sides reached an impasse on scheduling issues. Negotiating Chairman and APA President met with Arpey and apparently the AA negotiating team received permission to move off of their position.
Since then nothing significant has been said. So is October possible? Yes. Is it likely? Who knows. SW/FedEx pay rates? Who knows.
P.S. why is this in the UAL/CO merger section?
Obviously since AmEagle is being separated from AMR, scope will also be critical for the American pilots.
The TA is supposed to be out by Oct. '11
Can anyone familiar with an AMR pilot who's been to one of the APA roadshows confirm what APA is advising/releasing?[/QUOTE]
The only mention of something around October was in response to how soon could a TA be offered to the membership? "Maybe as soon as October, or maybe September, if things keep moving along. However all the hard issues are ahead and it could grind to a halt at anytime."
Two (?) weeks later the two sides reached an impasse on scheduling issues. Negotiating Chairman and APA President met with Arpey and apparently the AA negotiating team received permission to move off of their position.
Since then nothing significant has been said. So is October possible? Yes. Is it likely? Who knows. SW/FedEx pay rates? Who knows.
P.S. why is this in the UAL/CO merger section?
Last edited by Sliceback; 08-03-2011 at 01:37 PM. Reason: added P.S.
08-03-2011, 02:19 PM
#16
Gets Rolled on the Reg.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 274
Originally Posted by bearcat
FWIW - The CAL MEC Chairman, Jay Pierce, stated Monday that APA and UAL/CAL are on approx the same timeline as far as negotiations go. He talks with the APA Chair regularly.
Originally Posted by Sliceback
The only mention of something around October was in response to how soon could a TA be offered to the membership? "Maybe as soon as October, or maybe September, if things keep moving along. However all the hard issues are ahead and it could grind to a halt at anytime."
Two (?) weeks later the two sides reached an impasse on scheduling issues. Negotiating Chairman and APA President met with Arpey and apparently the AA negotiating team received permission to move off of their position.
Since then nothing significant has been said. So is October possible? Yes. Is it likely? Who knows. SW/FedEx pay rates? Who knows.
P.S. why is this in the UAL/CO merger section?
Two (?) weeks later the two sides reached an impasse on scheduling issues. Negotiating Chairman and APA President met with Arpey and apparently the AA negotiating team received permission to move off of their position.
Since then nothing significant has been said. So is October possible? Yes. Is it likely? Who knows. SW/FedEx pay rates? Who knows.
P.S. why is this in the UAL/CO merger section?
The reason it's in the CAL/UAL merger section is exactly for the reason
bearcat relates. The APA negotiations are very relevant to the CAL/UAL negotiations and
will have a large effect on what we as a group at the new UAL will fight for in
achieving an industry leading contract. The more AMR pilots the
CAL/UAL guys talk to and understand about APA's progress, the better it is for both sides.
Likewise, it's good for the AMR guys to talk to us to be reminded about
what they're going to be up against with the separation of Eagle in relation to our 70 seat issues.
Imho, in addition to the CAL/UAL/AMR MEC's talking, we as pilot groups should be doing it too in an effort to be mutually informed.
So I'd like to keep this here where CAL/UAL pilots can discuss what they're finding out
from American Pilots who've spoken first hand to their APA reps. about the payrates. Thanks.
Last edited by 1257; 08-03-2011 at 02:48 PM.
08-03-2011, 04:59 PM
#17
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,185
1257 - speaker is directly involved and made the comment in front of domicile meeting so it's no secret. Maybe Sept, maybe Oct., maybe next year...
It just seems odd to have a thread asking for AA pilots insight/knowledge not on the 'majors' board.
I've spoken directly to negotiators and reps. They didn't offer pay rate information and I don't ask. If you ask you'll get some 'coach speak' reply so I don't bother.
It just seems odd to have a thread asking for AA pilots insight/knowledge not on the 'majors' board.
I've spoken directly to negotiators and reps. They didn't offer pay rate information and I don't ask. If you ask you'll get some 'coach speak' reply so I don't bother.
08-04-2011, 07:08 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: 737 CAPT
Posts: 1,882
Jay Pierce said on this week's conference call that he is not aware of AA pilots and management being close to a resolution. Someone asked about this very rumor. He said he talks to their union head (Bates?) every week and hasn't gotten the impression that things are close to being done.
Just what he said when he was asked.
Just what he said when he was asked.
08-07-2011, 05:16 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,258
Originally Posted by Sniper
If true, it could be very beneficial if the other rumor that AA is setting themselves up for a Ch. 11 filing (which is supposed to be more difficult to do these days, preventing airline management from doing 'a Delta', and going into bankruptcy just to shed liabilities - underfunded pilot pensions, among others) is true.
Generally, a bankruptcy court doesn't look kindly on management asking to abrogate a new agreement, since it would be assumed that management knew about their perilous financial position when the contract was signed, but thought they could afford it.
How does this relate to industry leading rates? If true, the AA rates might be immune to bankruptcy concerns for a bit, allowing other groups to use them in their 'comparison' calculations without concern for the 'status quo' changing in the middle of a drawn-out negotiation.
Generally, a bankruptcy court doesn't look kindly on management asking to abrogate a new agreement, since it would be assumed that management knew about their perilous financial position when the contract was signed, but thought they could afford it.
How does this relate to industry leading rates? If true, the AA rates might be immune to bankruptcy concerns for a bit, allowing other groups to use them in their 'comparison' calculations without concern for the 'status quo' changing in the middle of a drawn-out negotiation.
Delta was flat broke when they went into Chapter 11. If anything they tried to hard and waited to long to file. Managements compensation was almost entirely tied up in massive numbers of stock options. Options they knew they would lose if they filed. The airline was literally 60 days from not making payroll and cash on hand was below the amount most financial people felt was the minimum to enter chapter 11. You have to go almost all cash when you file so you need a cash cushion. Most felt Delta needed 1.5 billion. Instead they waited until they were down to almost 1 billion.
