|
Originally Posted by gettinbumped
(Post 1171453)
Interesting thoughts and discussions.
Just my .06, since I've already put in a couple of .02's. Friday is the fork in the road the way I see it. We are either going to move forward together, or we are going to crater this deal into a USAirways moment that we will never fully recover from. Trying VERY hard to see this from both perspectives, and put myself in the CAL pilots shoes. One, I too would be rather uncomfortable that the "other side" puts out a call for release without the knowledge of my own MEC. Obviously none of us have all the facts. As a UAL pilot, I too would rather have had your MC and MEC on board when this decision was reached. At this point, my frustration is SO GREAT with the stalling tactics of the "company" that we work for that I'm just excited to get some ACTION. In my opinion, and my opinion only, we've been enduring for FAR too long once a week meetings, discussions on work rules, large groups, small groups, retrenching back to 2010 positions by the company, broken promises, Jr managers showing up instead of promised Sr managers, NOBODY showing up even though they are on their home turf, etc. etc. etc. When the company wants something from us, it takes a couple of weeks to re-write the whole contract. We could have the entire thing done by April 30th if they wanted to, so I simply bristle at any/every suggestion by ANYBODY that things are progressing well. I'm firmly of the belief that they are toying with us, and will continue to do so until forced to actually negotiate. So where does this leave us? Jay Heppner puts out his Blastmail calling for release. I don't know Capt. Heppner personally, but I do know that he is uniquely positioned now as the most informed pilot at either property having been the head of the Negotiating Committee and now the MC. He is intimately familiar with the mediator and probably has the clearest idea of their thinking of anyone on the combined MEC. My GUESS is that he has a very good reason for calling for this action NOW. I'm trying to consider what I would want if the shoe were on the other foot and it was the CAL MEC/MC who put out the word for word blast mail that we all received. After much debate, I think I would feel the same way that I feel now, which is GOOD. Let's GET GOING. If we don't get released, we don't get released. If we DO get released and we end up with Pres. Obama not allowing a strike, we are under the direction of the PEB, and I'm convinced that would be a GOOD thing based on AMR's situation in years past. I can appreciate the apprehension of the CAL pilots with the announcement that was made without the apparent knowledge and support of the CAL MEC. However, I hope that we can rally behind the message as ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. It's TIME. If not now, what are we waiting for? I'm finished with excuses, I'm finished with waiting, and I'm finished with updates. The company has shown their true colors. I'm sure the company is hoping HARD that the CAL MEC will split with the request for a demand to contract end, as this would be the ultimate symbol that we are too busy fighting each other to bother fighting them. I know all the history of how we got here. I'm familiar with all the grievances, deals, TPA's, discussions etc., and to me, none of that matters anymore. It's what happens Friday that charts the path for our combined pilot group, our contract, and our future. If the shoe were on the other foot, I feel confident that I would spend tomorrow making sure that reps KNOW that I want to support the demand for a contract by June 1st or request release on April 30th. I hope my brothers and sisters at CAL will join us. I probably could have said all that in 2 sentences, but I was on a roll..... Interesting post and you do bring up a couple of valid points, but let me give you my take as a CAL pilot who has many UAL friends, and has always tried to see the big picture. I am confused and fearful of you MEC Chair putting out the message he did, without doing it within the confines of a "Joint" message. We are in Joint negotiations.. His message seems to be of one where he is asking for the release of the United pilots if his timetable isn't met. Now, how will (or has) this go over with the NMB? Your guess is as good as mine. But, from my understanding, the NMB has not been to happy with the way the company has been playing with regards to negotiations. We all know that the RLA ties our hands behind our backs. And therefore, we are forced to play by certain rules. So my question is this- Asking for "release" is a big step that is usually taken when we are at an impasse. Are we at an impasse? If we are at an impasse, was there an MEC Meeting (on your side) where your LEC's directed your MEC chair to pull this trigger? And if so, and your LEC's felt so strongly, were those feelings conveyed to the CAL MEC? Also, is this the feeling of your NC? I just do not see where one group asking for release of their side, by a certain date.. without the support or even knowledge of the message, by the other side- is going to help. My .02 cents is this. The NMB is not going to release one side. And I wouldn't be surprised if the NMB actually looks poorly on the JNC for this move. On top of this, what would you think if you were the company? -That the two MEC can't work together and we can use this to low ball... Now, if the CAL MEC agrees to support this, the next thing you will hear from the CAL Pilots is an uprising as to what is really going on?! And why JP and the entire MC plus other committees are doing a 180. That can have no good outcome on my side. Mind you, even if CAL MEC supports this, if the NMB doesn't release us (which I don't think they would).. what has this gotten us? If the CAL MEC does not support this, what does it say to the company, the NMB and also to Wall Str and the investors. That the combined UAL/CAL ALPA are a rudderless ship, fighting amongst themselves. That can have no good outcome for either side. I wanted to support this notion of a timelimit and then a release, before I spoke with a Rep today and then attended the Fam Aware dinner earlier this evening. Now, not so much because of the reasons I stated above. Also, if JH did this to stick it to JP.. no one wins. My last question is this- Did JH make this ultimatum with the support of your entire MEC and ALPA National, or is this being done as a solo crusade to keep certain parts of your MEC happy? I've heard that at least one of your counsels has put out a resolution against ALPA.. if true, does this have anything to do with it? Thanks for taking the time to read. Guess we'll know more by Friday night~ Motch |
Motch,
That is what I was thinking but I didn't want to come out and say it. But, since you said it.....lets dive into it. I think the UAL MEC Chair has already let the cat out of the bag. He can only speak for his MEC and for his pilots. He can't (By ALPA policy and CBL) speak for the CAL pilots. If he is asking for release, then what he is really asking for is a severance of the JCBA protocol and to proceed alone for a relase for the UAL pilots and on behalf of the UAL pilots. He sort of threw the CAL pilots under the bus. If he is a former NC Chair, then he is no rookie. This was not a mistake, but a pre-planned pin-point message release aimed at severing the currnet JCBA plan and taking the UAL pilots wherever it is they wish to go. Not sure if he is leading the MEC, or if their MEC is calling the shots. This might be a one-hit-wonder. Like that do-wop song by those two twins from the west coast. Maybe he's lip-syncing like Milli-Vanilli. Whatever it is....It ain't by accident. |
Originally Posted by Regularguy
(Post 1171583)
Otto...
You are so far out in left field a ball could land in front of you and it would be a home run. Your posts reek of inexperience and fear and quite frankly if we go separate ways I guarantee you the game is over, there will be no merged seniority and the UCH will continue their growth of contract pilot work. Now to answer your points: 1. "UAL MEC is ape-bonkers over CAL pilots getting the profit sharing we deserve? " A. - They did not go "ape" over your PS deal. They filed a grievance because UCH distributed the PS to the UAL pilots in violation of the CBA which is in force. Fair or not the CAL pilots got PS in a deal outside of your CBA. 2. "The UAL MEC screwed this joint thing up pretty bad." A. UAL and now UCH management screwed this place up. UAL pilots took major hits in retirement, pay, vacation, work rules and such to save this airline from liquidation over 10 years ago. Now Jeff says UAL pilots do not deserve a return for their investment and continually claims it would be unfair to the other employees. 3. "They look like clowns. It looks like lone wolf MEC over there. So much for joint anything." A. The UAL MEC has continually, since the beginning of the merger, worked diligently with the CAL MEC. They have kept them informed and called for joint meetings and solidarity. Conversely the CAL MEC (EWR leading) turned the initial battle into positioning for ISL and has continued to walk out on and stone wall the UAL MEC. Additionally Jay Pierce is well know on the inside as being untrusted with any private direction. It seems the UCH management has always been informed of all joint MEC Chair discussions before the MEC members themselves. Otto the short run is only toast if your MEC Chair chooses it to be! As I said in a previous post, if people like you decide to go separate ways and hurt a UAL pilot action rather than join in you are no brethren of ours. Fly your plane, enjoy your seniority. If jay was so "untrusted" then why is it that he holds the longest tenure of any Chairman at the CAL pilot group, be it IACP, or ALPA? I think he may even hold the longest tenure of any ALPA MEC Chair anywhere. Jay has made some enemies along the way I take, but he is still the MEC Chair and I would wager he will be for the next 2 years. Who cares what you lost or what you gave up.........It's me me me me this bla bla bla No kidding.........We all lost. The problem is that the UAL MEC has done nothing to move the ball forward in a productive way. I simply can't think of anything......Oh wait... they wrote a letter to Congress. CAL Pilots are free to negotiate side letters outside of our CBA. That is standard in labor contracts. To pretend otherwise is total naivity on your part. The CAL CBA has over 30 side letters and every year we get more. Why not go out and greive the other ones we have too, or are those side letters okay with you?? Jeff says what Jeff says. Go attack him, not the CAL pilots. We work hard and we deserve what we negotiate. I don't care what Jeff says. If you listen to his junk that is your fault for doing that and getting sucked into it. Take an add in the Wall Street Journal or the USA today and go after Jeffie, but leave the CAL pilots alone. You are wrong about your assertion that Jay communicates off the books with management. You simply aren't close enough to the players to know where the chairs are or who sits in them. There are 2 conspiracy thorists who assert this. One is a former rep from EWR who has a personal grudge and the other is a wacko that is on Pluto every time he hits the send button. Both have been very severely discredited. |
Originally Posted by Ottolillienthal
(Post 1171604)
You are wrong on all counts.
If jay was so "untrusted" then why is it that he holds the longest tenure of any Chairman at the CAL pilot group, be it IACP, or ALPA? I think he may even hold the longest tenure of any ALPA MEC Chair anywhere. Jay has made some enemies along the way I take, but he is still the MEC Chair and I would wager he will be for the next 2 years. Who cares what you lost or what you gave up.........It's me me me me this bla bla bla No kidding.........We all lost. The problem is that the UAL MEC has done nothing to move the ball forward in a productive way. I simply can't think of anything......Oh wait... they wrote a letter to Congress. CAL Pilots are free to negotiate side letters outside of our CBA. That is standard in labor contracts. To pretend otherwise is total naivity on your part. The CAL CBA has over 30 side letters and every year we get more. Why not go out and greive the other ones we have too, or are those side letters okay with you?? Jeff says what Jeff says. Go attack him, not the CAL pilots. We work hard and we deserve what we negotiate. I don't care what Jeff says. If you listen to his junk that is your fault for doing that and getting sucked into it. Take an add in the Wall Street Journal or the USA today and go after Jeffie, but leave the CAL pilots alone. You are wrong about your assertion that Jay communicates off the books with management. You simply aren't close enough to the players to know where the chairs are or who sits in them. There are 2 conspiracy thorists who assert this. One is a former rep from EWR who has a personal grudge and the other is a wacko that is on Pluto every time he hits the send button. Both have been very severely discredited. |
Otto:
I've been here over three decades and know many of the players on the UAL MEC personally. Again I will say this about many of yours and others posts here, the smell of fear and personal gain (or loss). Continue to misquote, speculate without any knowledge of the facts and hurt the process of negotiation if you must. But the simple fact is, and you can deny it as much as you want, the time is here to get off the pot. Either you are in this for United pilots or your not. So far from all you write all I can only make the conclusion your not. Whether you like it or not JP has publicly said, "I'm in this for the CAL pilots." So it can't be any clearly than that, he is not doing his best to advance a JCBA. My challenge for you is simple this are you in for us all? If you are then quit the two contract garbage and demand your reps to support the release and Heppner's guidance for all of us. Fear will destroy and knows no boundaries. |
Otto:
Just to get the facts straight for the umpteenth time, THE UAL MEC IS NOT GRIEVING YOUR SIDE LETTERS! The Grievance is about UCH management not paying the UAL pilots according to the UAL pilot CBA formula for PS. The CBA gives specific directions and formulas about how to compute the PS and the UCH management chose to ignore it. Additionally they are grieving that UCH management broke the "status quo." by negotiating a substantial side agreement under the guise of grievance reward. NO ONE I KNOW FEELS YOU SHOULDN'T ENJOY YOUR FINANCIAL WINDFALL! Please get your facts straight before you embarrass your self more. So again join us or get out of the way. |
RG,
The UA MEC does have a grievance against the CAL MEC as a party to the status quo violation question, and ALPA attorney Rusty Allman is representing CALALPA. The rest of your post is spot on. |
I, for one, would love to be released. Don't think it's even remotely likely, but all the same I'd still like to try. So why did this have to be made complicated by Heppner going it alone? I think initially, it would have been recieved well at the MEC, but CAL is under no obligation whatsoever to blindly follow Heppner's lead. In fact, he's handed a pretty good excuse to anyone on the CAL MEC not inclined to request release to vote no. All the whining I've heard here about Pierce "going it alone" in the past and suddenly it's quite OK for Heppner to do exactly that and we're supposed to just tag along. I understand the MEC's have agreed to operate somewhat independantly (mutually exclusive is probably more accurate), but if Heppner cared at all for the CAL MEC's support for something of this importance he might of at least given them a heads up. Maybe he just doesn't care, which is fine as long we're not condemned for having our own opinions on the matter. Esssentially, I'm hoping we request release as well but I'm not necessarily expecting it from the CAL MEC just because the UAL MEC Chairman made that decision on his own.
|
Originally Posted by Ottolillienthal
(Post 1171312)
...... So, the best predictor of future performance is past performance.......
|
Originally Posted by Regularguy
(Post 1171618)
Otto:
I've been here over three decades and know many of the players on the UAL MEC personally. Again I will say this about many of yours and others posts here, the smell of fear and personal gain (or loss). Continue to misquote, speculate without any knowledge of the facts and hurt the process of negotiation if you must. But the simple fact is, and you can deny it as much as you want, the time is here to get off the pot. Either you are in this for United pilots or your not. So far from all you write all I can only make the conclusion your not. Whether you like it or not JP has publicly said, "I'm in this for the CAL pilots." So it can't be any clearly than that, he is not doing his best to advance a JCBA. My challenge for you is simple this are you in for us all? If you are then quit the two contract garbage and demand your reps to support the release and Heppner's guidance for all of us. Fear will destroy and knows no boundaries. I am in this for the long haul. The long term gains and benefits outweigh anything else. However........This is like a bad relationship right now. Like a bad girlfriend. It's not about who is right or who is wrong. both MEC's have screwed up. CAL MEC had the red headed crazy woman. UAL MEC has made some bad decisions, etc. Here is where we are today.....We can't change that no matter how you sugar coat it. JH launched the atomic bomb and threw the CAL pilots under the bus. He is not OUR master chairman. He took this course of action by himself. What are we to think of it?? In the short run, it is best for both pilot groups to get themselves a deal that reaches relative pairity so they can later come back together less "jealous" and "envious" of each other. You could even put in a provision that mandates a time-line and a provision of no outside side letters until a JCBA is reached. Think of the positives here in the long run..... |
Originally Posted by Regularguy
(Post 1171623)
Otto:
Just to get the facts straight for the umpteenth time, THE UAL MEC IS NOT GRIEVING YOUR SIDE LETTERS! The Grievance is about UCH management not paying the UAL pilots according to the UAL pilot CBA formula for PS. The CBA gives specific directions and formulas about how to compute the PS and the UCH management chose to ignore it. Additionally they are grieving that UCH management broke the "status quo." by negotiating a substantial side agreement under the guise of grievance reward. NO ONE I KNOW FEELS YOU SHOULDN'T ENJOY YOUR FINANCIAL WINDFALL! Please get your facts straight before you embarrass your self more. So again join us or get out of the way. I wouldn't call it a financial windfall by any stretch. As long as the remedy doesn't hurt the pilots on either side it may be a positive. Right now CAL pilots see it is a negative. That may be to the packaging and the timing of what we've heard about it. This guy Smisek is pretty slick. He may have done it under the "guise" of something strange and you are probably right. If the line pilots at CAL understood the grievance the way you worded it here, that wouold go a long way to getting a better understanding of your position. This is the first explanation of it that I have heard that makes sense. I honestly hope you win if nothing else just to demonstrate to slick smisek that he doesn't have everthing covered. |
I can't beleive the ual guys would even consider going to battle with these guys.
|
Originally Posted by Regularguy
(Post 1171618)
Otto:
I've been here over three decades and know many of the players on the UAL MEC personally. Again I will say this about many of yours and others posts here, the smell of fear and personal gain (or loss). Continue to misquote, speculate without any knowledge of the facts and hurt the process of negotiation if you must. But the simple fact is, and you can deny it as much as you want, the time is here to get off the pot. Either you are in this for United pilots or your not. So far from all you write all I can only make the conclusion your not. Whether you like it or not JP has publicly said, "I'm in this for the CAL pilots." So it can't be any clearly than that, he is not doing his best to advance a JCBA. My challenge for you is simple this are you in for us all? If you are then quit the two contract garbage and demand your reps to support the release and Heppner's guidance for all of us. Fear will destroy and knows no boundaries. You are wrong. JP has been doing his best to advance the JCBA. That's why he is not tossing hand grenades every week. If anything else, he has been more disciplined, more patient, more deliberate, and more measured than his counterpart, or his predecessor. I think our COM discipline is vastly improved and that is likely due to the fact that JP has had to baby sit some inmature reps in the big bases at CAL. The entire MEC has had to re-think COM and likely compress 10 years of learning into about 4. You are dead wrong. I am in it for the UAL pilots. Every one. But, I think the quickest way to get there is 2 seperate short term deals that deal with big issues for these two pilot groups. That may be the medicine we both need to progress as mature adults. I honestly see that as the quickest way to the long term JCBA we all seek. It also brings more leverage. UAL MEC already has an injunction on it that I see in the COM messages. That would give CAL pilots more leverage in the respect that we are not as limited there. The great summer adventure is nearly here. UCH management has but one NC team. We could easily take our two MEC's and go after 2 CBA's and attack the problem in a pincer movement rather than a frontal assault. Don't you see the positives here? |
Originally Posted by syd111
(Post 1171680)
I can't beleive the ual guys would even consider going to battle with these guys.
|
To give you a very positive suggestion to keep the current JCBA train on the track...The only way I see this thing from de-railing is if both MEC's decide to meet 'jointly' when they have their respective MEC meetings to keep in place a common strategy and to adjust it as needed.
MEC meetings typically last a minimum of 3 days. Why not have joint MEC meetings in one building, and have seperate breakouts as needed to re-convene the individual MEC's to handle individual MEC business? The geographic separation is making it hard to maintain the business relationship. Joint MEC meetings would do the following: 1. build mutual trust and understanding of issues gemane to the process 2. provide ability to come together to work out issues that seperate us 3. provide a spring board to build relationships that would strengthen both pilot groups. 4. provide a process to refine a common communications strategy. 5. provide an outlet so that both MEC Chairs can speak with a common voice to common issues (no more lone ranger stuff). 6. keep both MEC's informed of progress or lack there of and give both MEC's an opportunity to put their respective heads together collectively to implement a common solution for all. We elect the MEC reps to do our business. If we respect the actual process and let our MEC reps do it, then the process will be preserved and the results will be respected and the pilots might actually understand it,and then buy-into it. Absent this sort of working relationship....what are the options and what will the result be? |
Originally Posted by intrepidcv11
(Post 1171691)
T O R Q U E! Can I get a fist pound from ya' Brain Surgeon! A good friend of mine who is a Bus Capt in ORD once told me that he stopped listening to long winded 'going to battle lectures' from your type after being stupefied by the willingness to BOHICA in BK far too often.
If you think the cal guys will stand by you, your an idiot. |
Originally Posted by Ottolillienthal
(Post 1171694)
To give you a very positive suggestion to keep the current JCBA train on the track...The only way I see this thing from de-railing is if both MEC's decide to meet 'jointly' when they have their respective MEC meetings to keep in place a common strategy and to adjust it as needed.
MEC meetings typically last a minimum of 3 days. Why not have joint MEC meetings in one building, and have seperate breakouts as needed to re-convene the individual MEC's to handle individual MEC business? The geographic separation is making it hard to maintain the business relationship. Joint MEC meetings would do the following: 1. build mutual trust and understanding of issues gemane to the process 2. provide ability to come together to work out issues that seperate us 3. provide a spring board to build relationships that would strengthen both pilot groups. 4. provide a process to refine a common communications strategy. 5. provide an outlet so that both MEC Chairs can speak with a common voice to common issues (no more lone ranger stuff). 6. keep both MEC's informed of progress or lack there of and give both MEC's an opportunity to put their respective heads together collectively to implement a common solution for all. We elect the MEC reps to do our business. If we respect the actual process and let our MEC reps do it, then the process will be preserved and the results will be respected and the pilots might actually understand it,and then buy-into it. Absent this sort of working relationship....what are the options and what will the result be? As I said earlier, your ALPA leaders sacrificed unity at the alter of SLI looong ago. Various leaders (famously JP & JB) made it perfectly clear that this is all about the ISL and that they were willing to delay the JCBA until we agreed to there terms. It is impossible to work collaboratively and openly in such an environment. The seeds of mistrust are not even disguised anymore! Yet we still try...and the CAL MEC won't participate in the joint meetings. You should communicate this desire upwards through your union. |
.and the CAL MEC won't participate in the joint meetings. .and the CAL MEC won't participate in the joint meetings. If Mr JP comes back with anything but support for the release you can be 100% sure that you are being duped by a management lackey. |
Originally Posted by AxlF16
(Post 1171699)
That approach only works if both MEC's are willing to work collaboratively and openly.
As I said earlier, your ALPA leaders sacrificed unity at the alter of SLI looong ago. Various leaders (famously JP & JB) made it perfectly clear that this is all about the ISL and that they were willing to delay the JCBA until we agreed to there terms. It is impossible to work collaboratively and openly in such an environment. The seeds of mistrust are not even disguised anymore! Yet we still try...and the CAL MEC won't participate in the joint meetings. You should communicate this desire upwards through your union. What has just transpired goes beyond mistrust... this move by the UAL MEC may actually delay any Joint Contract, and gives even more power back to the company (in my opinion). I was not there 18 months ago when Jayson B made a somewhat inflammatory statement concerning PayBanding.. but were you? I have heard a few different stories concerning that, and not sure which one is true, but long story short, it hasn't and wasn't going to delay anything. And even if it was going to be an issue.. one rep alone can not delay a JCBA. The JNC would probably not allow it, the NMB WOULD NOT allow it.. it's grandstanding. But now, the UAL MEC has put out an ultimatum. Not sure if the NMB is even going to hear it at this early stage. Anyone know if this sort of request for release has ever been done before while negotiations are ongoing, and without having discussed all sections? Having just read the latest UAL Meeting Update, I see that your MEC is going this route alone- Building off of our earlier communications this week about the potential of seeking an April 30 release in response to Management's continued efforts put the negotiations in a holding pattern, I wanted to update you on some specific steps we have taken. In particular, I want you to know that we have assembled the most highly-qualified campaign team to bolster our strategic approach and complement our ability to execute our long-term game plan. Leading the effort is Jon Yarowksy, a partner at Patton Boggs in Washington, DC who is a former senior White House advisor to President Clinton, former General Counsel to the House Judiciary Committee (where he provided advice Members of Congress and Leadership) and very close to both the Obama White House and key players on the Hill (he was also a tailback for UCLA in the mid-seventies). Working with Jon on the communications side is Chris Lehane and Mark Fabiani of Fabiani & Lehane. Mark and Chris are both former Clinton White House advisors, served as aides to Vice President Al Gore and are well-known Democratic operatives who have helped run various presidential, gubernatorial and senatorial campaigns. Working with them, we have developed a comprehensive campaign to fight for all United pilots that will be called “The Unfriendly Skies." Jon, Mark and Chris all worked together in the Clinton White House and have collaborated on successful efforts over the years. They are aggressive and proactive - and have a very simple philosophy: Play to Win. “The Unfriendly Skies" campaign, which was discussed in a recent labor meeting in Chicago, is scheduled to be launched in conjunction with the summer travel season and will focus on the company's off-shoring of flights and out-sourcing of pilot jobs. The campaign is expected to focus on issues such as the compromised safety for passengers and loss of jobs for America’s pilots. Additionally, we intend to have a specific social media effort designed to pro-actively reach out to consumers in order to minimize any possible disruption in their summer travel plans. Not one mention of the CAL Pilots, CAL Staffing issues (which are huge) or anything to do with CAL. It seems to me that the UAL MEC is or has decided to go it alone. Guess we will see how that works. As we peel away levels, we keep finding new surprises. Guess we may all need to see what the TPA has in it with regards to separate contracts.. might be going down that road. Again, I don't see how anyone wins. Motch PS> I wonder who is paying for this team.. they don't sound cheap?! |
I find it ironic if a short survey was made of the posts on this blog concerning the JCBA one would find the following:
UAL pilots write more often about solidarity and the need to work as one while the CAL pilots write about how it might be better to go it alone. Why is that? "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. The fearful are caught as often as the bold." Helen Keller |
Originally Posted by Regularguy
(Post 1171733)
I find it ironic if a short survey was made of the posts on this blog concerning the JCBA one would find the following:
UAL pilots write more often about solidarity and the need to work as one while the CAL pilots write about how it might be better to go it alone. Why is that? "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. The fearful are caught as often as the bold." Helen Keller |
Originally Posted by Regularguy
(Post 1171733)
I find it ironic if a short survey was made of the posts on this blog concerning the JCBA one would find the following:
UAL pilots write more often about solidarity and the need to work as one while the CAL pilots write about how it might be better to go it alone. Why is that? There has been one CAL Pilot (OttoL..) that has been pro going it alone (to a point). I do NOT want to go it alone, and would have fully supported a release when the time was right, as a Joint decision. Your MEC has put out a request for release. Singular. Nothing Joint about his request, nor the follow-on MEC News about a committee being set up to have an "Unfriendly Skies" campaign this summer. Just wondering why you think CAL Pilots now want a separate contract instead of a Joint CBA. If we go separate, both sides will lose. Do you really think the New United Management is going to give you guys a great deal first and then negoiate with the CAL side? Just the opposite.. (I bet). The New United Management will probably give the CAL Side some sort of so-so deal just to keep things moving in the right direction, and then start to shift more flying to us from you. Something that I do not want to see.. but if we go down separate paths, might happen. If that does happen, and in a year or two we are asking "*** Happened?!", remember April 2012. The time when (for whatever reason?) you MEC pulled the trigger and singularly asked for a timeline for release and started down this road. Had this been a Joint decision, you would have gotten no argument from (probably/hopefully) anyone. Motch PS> The reason that some CAL Pilots write about "going it alone" is probably because I have yet to meet one CAL pilot who wanted this merger. As someone has stated ofter, it's a shotgun wedding and it's just getting worse~ |
Originally Posted by Pilotbiffster
(Post 1171615)
Eh , I don't trust JP as far as I could throw him. Otto, you pretty much embody our impressions of L-CAL pilots, obsequious sycophants. I really hope you're just a weirdo rather than represent what most CAL pilots are like. Go ahead and go it alone. Just make sure you kill all of us off while you do cause if not, we'll get even in SO MANY WAYS.
|
Originally Posted by syd111
(Post 1171697)
............ your an idiot.
To make it "easier" for you: What's the difference between your and you're? Your presence on this page means you're about to find out. Your Your is the second person possessive adjective, used to describe something as belonging to you. Your is nearly always followed by a noun. What is your name? Is this your pen? Your book is on the table. This is your chair and this is mine. What happened to your dog? Your being here is causing some problems. You're You're is the contraction of "you are" and is often followed by the present participle (verb form ending in -ing). You're going to be late. Is that what you're wearing? I think you're lying. If you're ready, we can go. I can't believe you're a doctor! When you're my age, you'll understand. The Bottom Line The confusion between your and you're occurs because the two words are pronounced pretty much the same. The ironclad rule - no exceptions - is that if you're able to replace the word with "you are," you're saying you're. Otherwise, your only choice is your. |
Originally Posted by horrido27
(Post 1171756)
If that does happen, and in a year or two we are asking "*** Happened?!", remember April 2012. The time when (for whatever reason?) your MEC pulled the trigger and singularly asked for a timeline for release and started down this road.
Had this been a Joint decision, you would have gotten no argument from (probably/hopefully) anyone. Motch Forget about JP.....I have spoken with LEC-IAH members who have CONFIRMED that the UA-MEC request, on behalf of Heppner, was COMPLETELY UN-cordinated with ANY facet of the CAL-MEC prior to taking the announcement public. Fine....If UA's MEC wants to make JP and his MEC show their toe's.....have at it!! Doing it in the fashion that they did was completely-counter productive as a JOINT front, and just ANOTHER item of faux paux's to be added to the list from BOTH sides as MGT just laughs at the Circus-Side Show. I'll be as so bold to say, I'm NOT in the minority when it comes to being disgusted with BOTH MEC's as to their LACK/WILLINGNESS to get on the same page when it comes to making a "line in the sand" stances towards MGT. You want to play games??? DO IT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.....germane to BOTH sides. If this C*R*A*P continues beyond where we presently sit, every single Pilot (within BOTH groups) can count on this being the beginning to the end. |
I have found that one of the most difficult things with this merger is divorcing myself from the "ownership" of being "Continental" or "CAL ALPA". I owe neither any loyalty, and the "we are bringing this" or "your guys did that" stuff is just distracting, yet painful noise.
I think the simple adage of "Lead, Follow, or Get out of the Way" is quite appropriate now. We ALL have been screaming for some leadership, and now here it is. Some might not like how we arrived here and are clinging to old persecutions and slights to dismiss this new direction, but nature abhors a vacuum and I think we ALL can agree that the past 2 years have been a vacuum when it comes to verifying any measurable progress in making our COLLECTIVE lives better. Somebody is leading, doesn't really matter at this point who it is. The choice is simple. Follow, or get out of the way. I have spoken to my Reps about this, we'll see which way they go Tmrw. |
Originally Posted by ewrbasedpilot
(Post 1171760)
The PERFECT post as to why the CAL pilots want to go it alone. The L-UAL pilots have this "we are God, we will destroy you, and all you've done is ruin our airline and careers" crap. You badmouth our MEC and do nothing but talk negatively about the CAL pilots and its leadership. How many posts by the CAL pilots do you see calling Heppner out? I dare guess, but it's VERY FEW, yet the L-UAL pilots are like phiranas after Jay. If we support our MEC, then we're "wierdos" or "idiots". Go it alone? Hmmm, seems like that is EXACTLY what Heppner is doing. But I guess that's okay since UAL is doing it.:rolleyes:
|
Originally Posted by ewrbasedpilot
(Post 1171767)
It's YOU'RE, NOT your! This is GRADESCHOOL grammar for crying out loud. Now who's the idiot?:eek:
To make it "easier" for you: What's the difference between your and you're? Your presence on this page means you're about to find out. Your Your is the second person possessive adjective, used to describe something as belonging to you. Your is nearly always followed by a noun. What is your name? Is this your pen? Your book is on the table. This is your chair and this is mine. What happened to your dog? Your being here is causing some problems. You're You're is the contraction of "you are" and is often followed by the present participle (verb form ending in -ing). You're going to be late. Is that what you're wearing? I think you're lying. If you're ready, we can go. I can't believe you're a doctor! When you're my age, you'll understand. The Bottom Line The confusion between your and you're occurs because the two words are pronounced pretty much the same. The ironclad rule - no exceptions - is that if you're able to replace the word with "you are," you're saying you're. Otherwise, your only choice is your. I do realize that you have all day to sit and carefully spell out your post, sorry I type fast and do not always check them but will sleep better knowing you are there to not only take my job but to also make any neccessary corrections to my post, thank you once again. |
Originally Posted by Lerxst
(Post 1171778)
I have found that one of the most difficult things with this merger is divorcing myself from the "ownership" of being "Continental" or "CAL ALPA". I owe neither any loyalty, and the "we are bringing this" or "your guys did that" stuff is just distracting, yet painful noise.
I think the simple adage of "Lead, Follow, or Get out of the Way" is quite appropriate now. We ALL have been screaming for some leadership, and now here it is. Some might not like how we arrived here and are clinging to old persecutions and slights to dismiss this new direction, but nature abhors a vacuum and I think we ALL can agree that the past 2 years have been a vacuum when it comes to verifying any measurable progress in making our COLLECTIVE lives better. Somebody is leading, doesn't really matter at this point who it is. The choice is simple. Follow, or get out of the way. I have spoken to my Reps about this, we'll see which way they go Tmrw. |
For the record: Jay Pierce has been doing the will of the body and the will of the pilot group. He has been the CAL pilots only true Master Chairman.
His predecessor sat there at the MEC meetings and listened to the CA rep from Cleveland, who represented no less than 79 pilots and held the pilot group hostage in pursuing his agenda. It could be an 8 to 1 MEC and darn it if the MEC Chairman just did what he wanted to do. That's why he got recalled. At the Time Jay was on the NC and I am sure Jay paid attention as to what will get a MEC Chair fired. If the EWR and IAH reps wanted Jay gone, he would have been gone a long time ago. Jay had a lot to do with the IAH CA rep getting fired from SPSC Chair, so I know there is no love-loss. But, business is business, and to-date, the Chairman is doing what he is told to do, and he seems to be doing it in an efficient and forthright manner. The CAL MEC has some interesting people on it, but so far they are working together pretty good and putting aside their petty issues for the good of the pilots. I would give the CAL MEC a solid B as a grade right now in patience, and in deliberate communications. I would like to see both MEC's on the same page to get the feeling that Jay Happner isn't trying to "lead" us where we can't go right now. If CA. Happner wants to do this, he needs to articulate a plan with documented evidence that the NMB will buy into and that the CAL reps can communicate to the CAL pilots and so that the CAL pilots can also buy into. Jay Pierce has been telling us contantly in his messages that UAL Management is not meeting our time line and our expectations. I've seen it and I know it to be the truth. But, until the NMB slams UCH management around a little the bully-pulpit is premature. His communications were not coordinated. If they were, you would have seen a joint Statement from the two respective MEC Chairs, and likely co-signed by CA. Lee Moak, the ALPA National President. That is the sort of cohesive commuications we are looking for. We aren't looking for "leadership." We are the leaders under the ALPA inverted triangle. The MEC Chairman works for the MEC, and the MEC works for the pilots. |
Just wait until this UAL MEC stunt backfires, UCH cancels the TPA and UAL is shrunk out of existance.
|
jumper:
"It has been rightly said that, "Failure is an event, and not a person." How we handle the bumps in the road will dictate what levels of success we obtain. I would venture to say that the most successful people you know have gone through far more failure events than those who are less successful." I would rather risk failure than to do nothing at all! "The concessions of the weak are the concessions of fear." EDMUND BURKE |
Originally Posted by jumppilot
(Post 1171841)
Just wait until this UAL MEC stunt backfires, UCH cancels the TPA and UAL is shrunk out of existance.
|
Originally Posted by jumppilot
(Post 1171841)
Just wait until this UAL MEC stunt backfires, UCH cancels the TPA and UAL is shrunk out of existance.
|
Originally Posted by jumppilot
(Post 1171841)
Just wait until this UAL MEC stunt backfires, UCH cancels the TPA and UAL is shrunk out of existance.
Oh wait...there isn't one. |
Originally Posted by UalHvy
(Post 1171883)
Something tells me that you will be crossing the line.
|
Originally Posted by Blockoutblockin
(Post 1171893)
Where exactly is this line? It seems there are two lines. Maybe your subject matter experts/brain surgeons can help us sort it all out.
|
I know a lot of us were probably flight instructors at one time and I did a lot of it back in the late 60’s and 70’s. So I’ve retired and I’m back doing it again but I stick mostly to teaching instruments. (The private is a killer for us old farts).
I get to tell my students, there are now two ways to look at this; there was only one way. Spend the time getting to know the airplane, work hard, study hard and fly the airplane and the procedures until it and they become part of you. But now we have a new way, the Continental way; read the book, watch a couple CBT’s, tie a pencil around your neck and have at it. Two different worlds. It’s your choice. |
Originally Posted by Once United
(Post 1171797)
We replaced one MEC Chairman because we didn't think they we doing a very good job after the merger - I'll ask, When are you going to do something about JP? So far he has done nothing but divide the two groups.
|
Originally Posted by Outsider
(Post 1171933)
............But now we have a new way, the Continental way; read the book, watch a couple CBT’s, tie a pencil around your neck and have at it.
Two different worlds. It’s your choice. |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:15 PM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands