JCBA does not give furloughees longevity
11-14-2012, 07:26 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by Learjet driver
I think the answer in the end will be that they can't. A union can't discriminate against any single group that they represent.
They can't give all CAL pilots full furlough longevity and give UAL pilots hired in 2007-2008 full furlough longevity but then deny it to the UAL pilots hired from 1999-2001. Going forward this TA gives all future furloughees full longevity as well. The only group that is denied this is the 99-2001 pilots.
For those of you who don't know what we're talking about let me give you an example. I was hired at UAL in 99 and then furloughed in 2003. I came back to UAL in 2006 and furloughed again in 2008. I have 6+ years of service at UAL in my 7th year of pay and hired 13.5 years ago.
After the SLI if the next senior CAL pilot to me is a 2001 hire I will get to bump to his longevity of 11years. If I'm stapled next to a 2005 hire I get to bump to his longevity of 7 years. If I get stapled behind a 2008 hire I go backward to 4 years of longevity.
The way the TA is written and how this part of the TA is explained in ALPA's video I would be paid at that year of my longevity. If I get stapled behind a 2008 hire I drop from 7th year pay and go back to 4th year pay. Keep in mind that this only affects the 99-2001 hires. Everyone else gets all credit for time spent on furlough.
Before people on this forum start talking about how ALPA doesn't have a duty to represent us because we're furloughed think about this. I, as well as many others in this situation have a bunch of UAL pilots junior to us still on the property flying at UAL. If I'm going to be on the receiving end of this, so are all the other pilots that are active but junior to me.
It's very easy to see why they did it. ALPA merger policy says that longevity is taken into account during a SLI. I'm not sure how much weight is given toward longevity during an SLI but the CAL MEC must think that there is a fair amount.
If this TA is passed with the present wording, UAL ALPA will probably find themselves in court explaining why they didn't fairly represent this group of pilots. The motivation on the part of the CAL MEC will be very easy to prove. In the end we will probably find out that the UAL MEC sacrificed this group of UAL pilots for a back room deal with the CAL MEC. I have a feeling that it has something to do with the $400 million dollars and how it is to be split up. UAL gets more money and CAL gets the seniority.
Clear as mud?
They can't give all CAL pilots full furlough longevity and give UAL pilots hired in 2007-2008 full furlough longevity but then deny it to the UAL pilots hired from 1999-2001. Going forward this TA gives all future furloughees full longevity as well. The only group that is denied this is the 99-2001 pilots.
For those of you who don't know what we're talking about let me give you an example. I was hired at UAL in 99 and then furloughed in 2003. I came back to UAL in 2006 and furloughed again in 2008. I have 6+ years of service at UAL in my 7th year of pay and hired 13.5 years ago.
After the SLI if the next senior CAL pilot to me is a 2001 hire I will get to bump to his longevity of 11years. If I'm stapled next to a 2005 hire I get to bump to his longevity of 7 years. If I get stapled behind a 2008 hire I go backward to 4 years of longevity.
The way the TA is written and how this part of the TA is explained in ALPA's video I would be paid at that year of my longevity. If I get stapled behind a 2008 hire I drop from 7th year pay and go back to 4th year pay. Keep in mind that this only affects the 99-2001 hires. Everyone else gets all credit for time spent on furlough.
Before people on this forum start talking about how ALPA doesn't have a duty to represent us because we're furloughed think about this. I, as well as many others in this situation have a bunch of UAL pilots junior to us still on the property flying at UAL. If I'm going to be on the receiving end of this, so are all the other pilots that are active but junior to me.
It's very easy to see why they did it. ALPA merger policy says that longevity is taken into account during a SLI. I'm not sure how much weight is given toward longevity during an SLI but the CAL MEC must think that there is a fair amount.
If this TA is passed with the present wording, UAL ALPA will probably find themselves in court explaining why they didn't fairly represent this group of pilots. The motivation on the part of the CAL MEC will be very easy to prove. In the end we will probably find out that the UAL MEC sacrificed this group of UAL pilots for a back room deal with the CAL MEC. I have a feeling that it has something to do with the $400 million dollars and how it is to be split up. UAL gets more money and CAL gets the seniority.
Clear as mud?
Putting this in the contract makes no since. Everyone should get their longevity back to date of hire.
11-14-2012, 08:14 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: B777
Posts: 586
Originally Posted by David Watts
The CAL pilots that were forloughed in 2001 (1998-2001 hires) didn't keep their longevity either. So a 2000 hire at CAL is not on 12th year pay.
Putting this in the contract makes no since. Everyone should get their longevity back to date of hire.
Putting this in the contract makes no since. Everyone should get their longevity back to date of hire.
11-14-2012, 08:47 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: 30 West
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by David Watts
The CAL pilots that were forloughed in 2001 (1998-2001 hires) didn't keep their longevity either. So a 2000 hire at CAL is not on 12th year pay.
Putting this in the contract makes no since. Everyone should get their longevity back to date of hire.
Putting this in the contract makes no since. Everyone should get their longevity back to date of hire.
4. Pay Longevity Credit for Furloughees
Upon date of signing, any pilot who is, or previously was, furloughed and whose accrued
pay longevity is less than that of pilots hired on or before 5/6/08 shall receive additional
pay longevity credit for time spent on furlough, but only to the extent that such credit
TA LOA 25 Page 464
does not provide a pay longevity date prior to 5/7/08. When an Integrated Seniority List is
presented to the Company that satisfies the terms of Section 5 of the Transition and
Process Agreement (“TPA”), pilots who are or previously were furloughed shall receive
additional pay longevity credit for all time spent on furlough provided that they have
additional time on furlough which was not credited for pay longevity purposes upon date
of signing, and provided further that the application of such additional credit does not
result in any s-United pilot having a pay longevity date that is earlier than the pay
longevity date of the next most senior s-Continental pilot. For purposes of the application
of the calculations required by the preceding sentence only, a hypothetical unadjusted
pay longevity date for s-Continental pilots shall be used. The hypothetical unadjusted pay
longevity date will be established by removing pay longevity reductions resulting from to
time spent on leaves of absence.
11-14-2012, 09:08 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: 30 West
Posts: 149
For those of you who were around or remember contract 2000, it gave all the pilots at UAL who were furloughed in 1978 their longevity back for time spent on furlough. They didn't make it back to UAL until 1985. Some furloughed for 7 years, sound familiar? Why did it matter in contract 2000? They were already at 12th year pay. They needed it to pad their pension, more years of longevity higher payout.
This might help the CAL furloughed pilots from 2001 have a higher stake in the frozen pension plan on the CAL side. I hope it does.
So now you can see how every group of pilots who have ever been furloughed from UAL and CAL (in the past 11 years) has benefited from longevity while on furlough except for the pilots hired at UAL in 1999-2001. This is purposely being blocked for them in this TA.
This might help the CAL furloughed pilots from 2001 have a higher stake in the frozen pension plan on the CAL side. I hope it does.
So now you can see how every group of pilots who have ever been furloughed from UAL and CAL (in the past 11 years) has benefited from longevity while on furlough except for the pilots hired at UAL in 1999-2001. This is purposely being blocked for them in this TA.
11-14-2012, 09:16 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by Learjet driver
That may be correct now but according to LOA 25 after the SLI they will get credit for all time on furlough and take them to the maxed out longevity of 12 years. I'm telling you that the only group that this effects is the 1999-2001 UAL pilots. Read it.......... I wish I was wrong
4. Pay Longevity Credit for Furloughees
Upon date of signing, any pilot who is, or previously was, furloughed and whose accrued
pay longevity is less than that of pilots hired on or before 5/6/08 shall receive additional
pay longevity credit for time spent on furlough, but only to the extent that such credit
TA LOA 25 Page 464
does not provide a pay longevity date prior to 5/7/08. When an Integrated Seniority List is
presented to the Company that satisfies the terms of Section 5 of the Transition and
Process Agreement (“TPA”), pilots who are or previously were furloughed shall receive
additional pay longevity credit for all time spent on furlough provided that they have
additional time on furlough which was not credited for pay longevity purposes upon date
of signing, and provided further that the application of such additional credit does not
result in any s-United pilot having a pay longevity date that is earlier than the pay
longevity date of the next most senior s-Continental pilot. For purposes of the application
of the calculations required by the preceding sentence only, a hypothetical unadjusted
pay longevity date for s-Continental pilots shall be used. The hypothetical unadjusted pay
longevity date will be established by removing pay longevity reductions resulting from to
time spent on leaves of absence.
4. Pay Longevity Credit for Furloughees
Upon date of signing, any pilot who is, or previously was, furloughed and whose accrued
pay longevity is less than that of pilots hired on or before 5/6/08 shall receive additional
pay longevity credit for time spent on furlough, but only to the extent that such credit
TA LOA 25 Page 464
does not provide a pay longevity date prior to 5/7/08. When an Integrated Seniority List is
presented to the Company that satisfies the terms of Section 5 of the Transition and
Process Agreement (“TPA”), pilots who are or previously were furloughed shall receive
additional pay longevity credit for all time spent on furlough provided that they have
additional time on furlough which was not credited for pay longevity purposes upon date
of signing, and provided further that the application of such additional credit does not
result in any s-United pilot having a pay longevity date that is earlier than the pay
longevity date of the next most senior s-Continental pilot. For purposes of the application
of the calculations required by the preceding sentence only, a hypothetical unadjusted
pay longevity date for s-Continental pilots shall be used. The hypothetical unadjusted pay
longevity date will be established by removing pay longevity reductions resulting from to
time spent on leaves of absence.
11-14-2012, 09:33 AM
#28
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
How is it that this even passed the UAL Side?!
Seriously, I don't understand how either side Voted Yes.
My hope is that if (when) this is Voted down.. The Recalls start flowing~
So far on the CAL Side, the Recalls of EWR and CLE are now on the Agenda.
Seriously, I don't understand how either side Voted Yes.
My hope is that if (when) this is Voted down.. The Recalls start flowing~
So far on the CAL Side, the Recalls of EWR and CLE are now on the Agenda.
11-14-2012, 09:55 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 645
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