Reasonable points Motch. I'm not as good as you are at breaking out the quotes, so I'm just going to ramble. :)

I definitely wasn't suggesting that the present TA IS the best we can possibly get. I was merely pointing out that the op's suggestion that you can ALWAYS get better on a second go is inaccurate. I'll wait for the roadshow to hear from the people in the room with the NMB what their opinion is on flexibility from them. The rest of us are merely speculating in one direction or another.

AMR has a new TA in the works. We will see what happens there. It appears to be better, but I'm not sure they will vote this one in either. I hope for their sake they do get a better deal. And for ours!!

I don't necessarily agree that this TA "shows us what the company thinks of us, and what our own Union feels we're willing to accept." I think it shows what kind of leverage we have been able to extract. Have we used ALL our leverage? Don't know. I'll see in the roadshow.

Have you looked at the contract comparison guide? Compared to our peers, I don't think it's as egregious as it is made out to be on this forum. Certainly not perfect. Good enough? I don't know yet. I want to hear what the Union has to say about it.

With regard to the retro: I get it. I truly do. And I know what I'm owed down to the $$. Philosophically, I agree that it's up to the union to convince the NMB that we deserve the whole $1.2B. Of course, while we are doing that, it goes to $1.3B.... then $1.4B. Really though, you and I talking about retro philosophy doesn't mean anything. It is going to come down to what the NMB decides we "deserve". We can stomp our feet and pound our fists, and it might help. Then again, it might not. "As a Continental Pilot, I know what I'm owed for the past four years. Every Pilot should now. It's simple. Take the hours you flew, times what your were paid. The do the same with Delta Rates. The difference is the Loan. And that doesn't include missed B Fund, lost days off, rolled days, double pumps, lost International override, coach crew rest seats, etc..."

Turning down this TA means that you continue to get hosed by all these things. For how long? A month? A year? 5 years? Although it's a different animal, I think most of us would agree that the USAirways guys were foolish when they decided to "take a stand" like they did.

$400 million doesn't sound like "too much" to me. It sounds like "not enough". Not NEARLY enough. But.... how does $400 million sound to the NMB? I think it's important to remember that we only see things from the pilots perspective. We see things through the glasses of 10 years of getting bent over by this absolutely disgrace of a company. But that isn't the perspective that the NMB has. Their opinion, like it or not, matters. A 99% strike vote is impressive, and clearly made a mark. But we've spent several YEARS applying pressure to the company, and this is where we ended up. So how many more YEARS of pressure do we need to apply to get to 100% retro, UPS pay rates, 5 hours/day vacation, 50 seat scope, etc. etc. etc?

Despite it's warts, this TA is going to be substantially more expensive for the company than our current contracts... loss of synergy included. I have no doubt they would be MORE than happy to start the process of negotiating over again and work on it for another several years.

I haven't made up my mind how I'm voting yet. I want to go to a roadshow, talk to my reps, and hear as much as I can about the process, the consequences of a "no" vote, and the "inside scoop" about the NMB's position. I'm MUCH more inclined to vote NO than I was now that Obama has been re-elected.

You've made up your mind. I respect that. You are offended at the company's lack of respect for us. I respect that. Get used to it. :) I just want to make sure that I have absolutely as much information as I can get my hands on before I make a decision.

Is time NOT money? You can get as mad and aggressive as you want. The facts are the facts. I'm just using my calculator

Amen to that!

And I agree.. I want to get as much info as I can too. I'm asking questions on here, on other forums, on the FaceBook Group thats out there and also on the ALPA site.

The answers I get will help me direct my Reps on what needs to be fixed (in my opinion).
If only Motch says "Fix X".. not gonna happen. I know that.
If 6000 pilots (who Vote NO) say "Fix X".. that sends a message.

Always
Motch

Funny you should write this!
I have a question in to ALPA about that. I printed out that Guide. Black and White (costly in color!).. was a little confused with what I saw so went back in and looked at it on the IPad.

Low and behold- The Graph that they are using states 2012 yet doesn't show how/when everyone gets their raises.
Now.. had they made the graph starting 2013, we would see a huge disparity in pay.
Better yet, why aren't there graphs for every year? it's a program, nothing to print (unless you want to). What are they hiding?

Also, they point out that we achieve the highest payscales everywhere! Yet they don't point out that it takes till 2017 to get there. This is pure false advertizing. Bait and switch.

I'm not saying that because I'm anti this TA, I'm saying that because this document is not fully truthful.

Gonna take some work, but I'm gonna try and make a graph for what I fly.. and what my friends fly~

Question is, why hasn't ALPA done this?

Motch

I wonder how many of the Yes voters here could have their IPs traced back to the CPO and union offices?


Don't buy the bull, people. You're going to live under this thing until 2020 at least.

My point is this is the first offer that we get to vote on. Which means it's the first offer. What other offer did you all see? They know the game. Why don't we?

Comparing Airtran to us is not applicable. They were bought with the intention of getting rid of airplanes. They had no leverage. If they walked away, they would've been fired and the 717's sold even quicker. Southwest would've just hired replacements. Gary made that clear. But SW had all the chips. Different from our situation.

AA also different as they are bankruptcy. But surprisingly they have managed to swing back while getting getting kicked in the jewels. They have more resolve than our group. Hence, their contract is still better than legacy CAL. We need to grow a pair collectively. We haven't even "flown the contract" for goodness sakes.

I'm not saying to vote no just to be difficult. I've read the entire contract and the notes. I would vote no for the above mentioned reasons in the original post.

If you've waited 4 years, what's another 2-3 months to get a 9% raise immediately? Don't let impatience cost you money in the long run. They are counting on it.

There's nothing to "fall for". It's just straight math. Estimate the delay incurred by the TA being voted down and see how much is needed to gain in order to break even. It aint pretty. BTW, when selling a house, the saying is that the first offer is the best. I've got experience that backs that piece of conventional wisdom.

And sometimes you simply can't take the first offer. Sometimes you just have to keep living in the house.

The retro goes up even farther to pay for the delay. Straight math. This is not their best offer. They will be laughing at us if we are dumb enough to vote this in as is. We are not going to start over at the beginning. Just renegotiate the items we feel are lacking. I'm glad your home selling has taught you to take the first offer. I'm not selling a home. Good contracts are negotiated by the masses, not the MEC's. MEC's work for the pilot group. I think they got a pretty good stab at the first try. We need to send them back with our needs. We won't get all of them 100%, but maybe we can get all of them 50% of 3 or 4 at 100% of our needs. Isn't that worth a short delay?

Jeffery and company delaying the JCBA for the 4 years then adjust for the 8% pay increase (as per CPO spring 2009) they were going to offer in 2008 and that is the RETRO PAY stolen from each pilot and moved to MGT PAY & BONUSES. It will take a couple careers of throttle control to get even a portion of that back...

Working for Liars, thieves and a Lawyer