I'm not knockin' you for your opinion here but it's time for the lual pilots to step up and own their **** here. This load of crap about how the injustices that exist at lual are jp's fault is really making you sound like a a whiny-ass crack ***** in rehab. Man-up and take some responsibility for whats going on in your own house. Fix your **** and quit trying to look for a scapegoat cause things ain't going your way or your guys continually suck ass.

Look. I voted no but should this lump pass, so be it. I'm not happy with it, but I not going to sit here and **** in my beer and blame the next 5-10 years of this contract on you and every other lual pilot.

Shouldn't there be some finger pointing at Jay H? He is your MEC. Pierce is handling the CAL pilot's concern. What has Jay H. done for you?

Ummmm.... Forced the NMB, Jay Pierce, and Lee Moak to put enough pressure on the company to get us a TA?

So very eloquently put. :rolleyes:

I'm stating nothing but simple facts. If you have an example of how you were "wronged" by Jay H., please feel free to post away. I'll be MORE than happy to lay 50% of the blame of us not having a contract right at the very beginning of this merger (with equity, BTW) at the UAL MC at the time, Wendy Morse. In my opinion, she and Jay Pierce TOTALLY dropped the ball by allowing the DOJ to rule on the merger without pilot influence on the hill. As for the other "injustices" at L-UAL, most of those have absolutely NOTHING to do with Jay P., and I never suggested they did. I merely pointed out:

1) Pay banding
2) LOA 25
3) Side negotiations for profit sharing in direct violation of the TPA
4) 11th hour reversal of previous agreed to retro distribution

are all products of Jay Pierce and directly harm the L-UAL pilot group. Sorry if that hurts your delicate sensibilities, but they did actually happen.

That being said, in a way, the ineptitude of those 2 "leaders" actually worked in our favor. If we had gotten a TA before DAL's new contract, it would have been WOEFULLY inferior to the one we are voting on now.

Oh, so it's ok for your Jay to look out for UAL guys and make things happen but not for my Jay to do this for Cal?

Aaand again. I'm asking you for an example of something that Jay Heppner did to specifically advance L-UAL's pilot group at the expense if the L-CAL pilot group.

Its what we hire them to do. But I think that anybody can plainly see that all these issues took place after the merger was announced and that any reasonable mediator or arbitrator is going to take all this into account because they can see the dynamics of this regarding three party negotiations, etc.

All the arbitrators and mediators will be able to see the posturing and what was trying to be accomplished prior to ISL that it's not going to matter.

They are going to follow the merger policy and none of the things that were negotiated will affect this.

We are going to get whatever they give us, and very little we do now is going to affect that. Try reading some of the other cases (most are non airline) where this was done, and these people recognize all the pre-negotiation manipulations and it gets thrown out.

Never said anything about this. Jay H is not a blameless leader as well. Wait until the SLI hate and finger pointing will get even worse and I feel confident if your leader could throw L-CAL under the bus for L-UAL, he will. I am slowly hearing the DOH drum beginning to beat.

Btw...if you credit your Jay for this bringing about this TA and it passes (will mostly on your side) then it will be at the expense of Cal pilots in my opinion. Much more hurt than the longevity issue.

I was merely answering your question with a question. If you are saying Jay is to "blame" for something that is detrimental to the L-CAL side, I'm simply asking you what that is. I'm not familiar with anything specific. I listed 4 things that Jay Pierce has done to advance his pilot groups standing in the ISL (which I think will probably be worthless anyway) at the expense of the L-UAL pilots. That's calling a spade a spade. If you have a similar example put forth by "our Jay", then I'm all ears.

Your opinion on the merits of the TA are noted. I disagree, and think that in this day and age it's a good agreement. There are some very strong improvements for L-CAL pilots in the deal, in work rules, B/C fund, etc. etc. The pay isn't as big a jump as it is for L-UAL pilots, and I can see how you would be frustrated with the Scope clause (though I hear a L-CAL SME gave a impassioned speech in EWR defending his assertion that the Scope in the TA is better than what you have now. I wasn't there, so I can't confirm this). If the L-CAL pilots think the leverage is there to get a deal that is better, then a "No" vote would be appropriate for you. Just remember, it has to be $1.3 million a day richer just to break even. Any improvements would have to be on TOP of that. And, like it or not, there is value to the L-UAL pilots for the airplanes and growth to be accessible to everyone, not just one side at the expense of the other. Remember, however, that Jay Pierce and 7 of the 11 CAL MEC reps support this deal, so they must have heard something in "ground school" that made them agree with my assertion that this is a good agreement.

Lastly, I haven't heard one pilot on the L-UAL side saying that they think DOH is the way the SLI will/should go. If you are hearing that rumor, then I'm unaware of the source. If you hear it from an actual UAL pilot, ask them if they would still think it appropriate for the merger to go DOH if we had merged with USAirways instead.

I expect "our Jay" to put forth his best case for the L-UAL pilots when the SLI is being argued. At that point, I will have no problem with "your Jay" doing the same. Then the chips will fall where they may. The issue I have is that Jay Pierce has poisoned the waters several times during the JCBA process, which was supposed to be independent of the SLI argument. That is inappropriate and in poor form in my estimation, and results in complaints from the effected L-UAL pilot group.

Sorry. Shouldn't drink heavily and post.

Ain't no thang. Next round is on me.

1) Still fail to see the problem with pay banding unless you see that as a way for lual to get a step on the sli. Short bus gets paid 757 rate.
2) jury still out on LOA 25. DO agree that it needs to be all or none. Not good for some and bad for others.
3) Give you that one. We blew leverage there.
4) Rumor control needed. Have you actually seen correspondence from either MEC that directly identifies this as a lcal demand or simply further negotiations.

I got the next two after that. I still gotta debate, though.

Thanks for not "Knocking" us. I'm sure you are going to be a delight to fly with.

Agree with most. I am not a hater of this contract but many are. I just feel that we are all worth more and this doesn't capture the two pilot groups. If we are to excel at being the best airline in the world, then we should be treated/compensated accordingly. I do look forward to working together. I spend a lot of time in Denver and was there last week. I like what I see with in regards to UAL guys. A lot of fun at the doubletree!

1) Career expectations being a major key to the SLI, the L-UAL argument would be that we have many more widebody airplanes, with the 747 being bigger than anything on the L-CAL side. With the 767-400 married to the 747, but the 767-300 married to the 757-300, that "advantage" is blunted. On the narrowbody side, by putting the 319 in the lower band with the 737-700/500, the L-UAL side has many more airplanes in that (the lowest) category.
2) Agreed
3) Agreed
4) Fair enough, as it is only hearsay on our side. It was just strange that this issue came up at the last minute, and the CAL MEC refused to start "ground school" until the arbitrators decision. If that wasn't the case, it would seem to me that issue would have been decided during the previous process like all the other issues. But you are correct that I haven't seen any document to that effect.

I hope that when this is all over we can all unite behind our elected leadership and get on with fighting Jeff. I take no pleasure in being "pitted" against my fellow pilots. This process is extremely difficult for all of us involved... which is why I feel it might be unrealistic to expect too much more from any further negotiations. But again, that is simply my assessment. It's not more valid than anyone else's who took the time to go through all the material we have been presented. Cheers

Absolutely. Debate is good and healthy. Especially when done over a few cocktails. :)

I can certainly respect that. I don't think this is a homerun contract either. I just don't see us wringing enough out of it to justify the economic cost of sending it back. But your evaluation of that can be totally different than mine and be no less valid.

Feel exactly the same. My impression of the CAL guys/gals is that you are a good bunch of blokes/er....blokettes. One way or another, looking forward to us all being on the same page.

Nicely summarized...

The brutal truth...

As long as you don't touch none of my switches, I will be. :rolleyes:

No problem, you can operate your gear and flap handle every leg if that's what you prefer.

I have flown on both sides of this operation, and, for the most part we are all the same. Two great groups of people. This combined pilot group will be fine. We deserve better than this, but , unfortunately this management group is what it is, and this TA is what it is. That is the cruel irony in this industry........great people.....professional , loyal employees being pooped on constantly by poor management. Oh well, time to go get another brewski.

Well said. I don't know how you have kept such a level head as a x2 furloughed bubba, but you guys have gotten absolutely killed. I have a ton of respect for your attitude and maturity, and dinner is on me when we fly together

Great analysis....

nice post..
But can I ask you a few questions- for everyone's benefit?

I take it you are now flying on the L-CAL Side? If so.. what do you think about how the Reserve/Work rules are and how the company interprets them? Been Double Pumped on Reserve?

What is your take with regards to LOA25? Having spoken to a UAL 2x Furlough (who is in that carve out group).. he is not happy.
He also told me about the Lawsuit and Law Firm. I think that will get interesting~

Thanks
Motch

Agree with you. Two good groups of pilots. Glad to fly with both.

Eric

You're putting way too much thought into this. If your initial gut feeling told you to vote no, that is probably the right answer. You are making excuses for an inferior contract.

Where is it written/posted/told that there are multiple snapshots?

Nowhere. I think that's wishful thinking. We became one company a while back, and just because management has decided to treat the pilot groups differently during that time, its not our fault.

They have incentive to grow the CAL operation because their contract makes it cheaper to do so. Yes, the hourly rates are slightly higher in some areas, but the rigs and work rules on the UAL side make is less enticing to grow the UAL side.

Hey !! "you" NO voters. Don't "you" worry about a thing. The second Smisek finds out about your succesfull rejection of the TA, he will inmediately pull his pants down and give you all you want in a matter minutes or even maybe hours. Hey, after all, you have shown that little kitty and the whole world how tough and united you all are, and with the backing of ALPA, NMB, the White House, specially congress....piece of cake. Smisek is well aware of the kind of lawyers you guys are and there is nothing that scares him more than pilots that know the law.

One thing for sure !! you'll for ever be my heroes. Go show him !! Not a problem, you got this.

Sky Dreamer

Put down the keyboard and slowly back away man.

"One thing for sure", you're a tool.

Go away. And learn how to spell, or how to use your computers built in spell checker.

You couldn't be more right !! I'm a very bad speller and not too good with computer gizmos. It could be because I speak more than one language and I don't spend much time on the key board, sorry. Obviuosly the two of you are better men and way more intelligent dudes. Good for you !!

However, I'm a pilot just like the two of you, I hope you are, and all you have to say is "go away"......great example of "unity". Hey, at the end, the spelling is not going to matter on what kind of contract we all get.

Thanks for the advise, now I'm going away.

Motch,
The current L-CAL reserve rules killed me when I was high mins and it was an under-staffed summer schedule! I called in fatigued, I called in sick......I am not a twenty something year old new hire. I know when I can safely fly and when I am being abused. After the fall schedule hit and I moved up a few numbers, it hasn't been too bad. If this TA passes, it should get a little better overall......

As for LOA 25, that is a highly charged, emotional topic. I see what the union was trying to do with it - get L-UAL junior furloughs up to a decent pay rate and thus inspire more of us to come back to work. However, for guys like me with 13+ years at this company, 5th year pay is not so exciting. From what I understand , after SLI, I may move up to 8th year pay , so , I got that going for me.......
I think the UAL guys are worried about being stapled, etc.
There is no easy answer to any of this that will make us all happy. Personally, I wish I was at the 12 year pay scale and I wouldn't mind however the SLI should play out. However, I have been through a lot in my career and have learned not to expect much. I was hoping for a good contract and to try to salvage the last years of my crappy career. I am just catching on to the lawsuit stuff, and yes. It could be very interesting!

Voyeur 14,

Unity?


To review, you show up at the eleventh hour of a LONG debate and tell us what a bunch of idiots and girly men we are because we managed to find serious and concessionary faults in this agreement. And now after tossing your feces you want to crawl back into your hole with the excuse is that you're bilingual and just a stupid pilot? Using that logic I too am stupid because A) I speak jive and B) still work here. Good luck with that line of reasoning as most who toil here won't give you a free pass. We're all stupid to an extent and joined at the hip to UCH.

By any chance, are you related to Trip7?

Didn't think about that, but you are right !! You are one idiot and girly man. BTW you didn't find anything and I am not bilingual, I speak four languages ( I know, your next insult is going to be that english is not one of them, so save it bud ).......how many do you speak ? or are you monolingual ? Back to my hole.

When you came back from furlough #1 did you get any pay longevity restored?

What if there was no LOA 25? If it were just coming back to whatever the old pay longevity was, do you think these guys would sue to get the pay longevity restored?

So it seems that LOA 25 potentially ADDS to something that isn't currently guaranteed.

James is cunnilingual Sport!

But what does that have to do with this thread? Do you polish your knob with your multilingual abilities? Does speaking four languages somehow add weight to your opinion and discredit the sentiment of those who speak fewer? Will it prevent you from being junior manned, flying into your vacation, training on days off, keep you from having your seniority abrogated through PBS, having a shortened 2.5 hour call out on reserve, watching the routes you have flown for years go to a 76 seat RJ, keep your brothers hosed from LOA 25, stop pay banding, soothe your "free" three hour FSB after a DH home, put more actual retro into your retro, or put 16% into your retro etc etc etc?

....................................