Originally Posted by hockeypilot44 (Post 1305155)

Our industry has been reset with the bankruptcies. We will never make anywhere near what pilots did in the past. This United contract is definitely not concessionary as a whole. It is lagging behind the Delta contract though by a few years. I don't think anyone on this board's personal minimums were met, but this TA will pass. The pay rate increases are significant enough that the majority will not want to gamble with them. We are pilots. Pilots are conservative and avoid risks. Most pilots will not risk losing these raises. Unfortunately, the days of negotiating industry leading are over. We now negotiate industry standard which means after this contract, our industry will be maxed out other than getting COLA. I was really hoping this contract would up the Delta contract. I thought it was possible because of the huge scope concessions to match Delta's. I also really thought all furloughees would be made whole. I figured Delta made that the new industry standard. This TA is a disappointment, but again, it is not concessionary as a whole. I would vote no, but I have never voted yes on anything.

Originally Posted by CousinEddie (Post 1305171)

Explain exactly how the contract lags behind Delta. I'm not talking about your personal opinion regarding the quality of one section or another. I'm talking total annual dollar cost to the company. As I understand it, the TA is very near DAL in the first year and surpasses DAL in total dollar value after that. You say that it lags not by one year, but several years. What is the source of your financial analysis, in dollar terms only, that refutes what we are being told by the ALPA finance folks that say otherwise?

From FAQ:
1) Why are our pay rates less than DAL?
· Overall total contract value in 2013 matches DAL, then surpasses DAL in 2014
· We could have matched DAL pay rates in 2013 but we put the money in other areas of the contract
o 2013 our B/C fund defined contribution is 2% greater than DAL
o 2013 profit sharing percentage is greater than DAL
o Vacation value is greater than DAL
o Health care plans are better than DAL
o M5D rig will increase our W-2 compared to DAL despite lower pay rates

Ultimately the money was spent on items which are typically harder to bargain for than pay rates and we wanted to use the leverage we had now to lock these down. Although retro can never be considered as anything other than money unjustly withheld by the Company’s delay tactics, the 2013 Retro installment will close the gap in our take-home pay when compared to DAL.

Originally Posted by CleCapt (Post 1305346)

My best advice to L-UAL is to talk to the UAL guys flying at CAL right now. Talk to them about contract abuse and how the company interprets the contract in THEIR favor.
The language of this TA is NOT strong enough to prevent this from continuing for another 4 years and beyond. Don't be swayed by a few extra dollars in your pocket. If this gets past the pilots, there will be a big "I told you so" 6 months from now when you see the company's interpretation of this POS TA.

Originally Posted by CALFO (Post 1305356)

Can you elaborate as to which items are not strong enough?

Originally Posted by APC225 (Post 1305370)

None of it, really, and never can be with this management team. One simple example will suffice.

5-E-5-a When a Reserve is available for a full Bid Period, he shall be scheduled for twelve (12) days off in each thirty (30)-day Bid Period and thirteen (13) days off in each thirty-one (31)-day Bid Period.

The union is touting this as 5 extra days off from the current contract. Guess what. The company turns around and modifies the length of bid periods, which they are allowed to do, which reduces the number of 31-day bid periods in 2013 from five to three, including ending the Dec 2013 bid period on the 29th!

So, let's say there are 1,000 pilots on reserve. By taking away two days off per pilot, that's 2,000 workdays gained by this simple modification to the bidding schedule. The 2,000 workdays gained by the company represents nine or ten pilots who don't have to be hired.

This, in a nutshell, is how our management team treats a contract. It is a petty, shortsighted, bean counter mentality. But multiply it across innumerable contract items and you can understand what the next eight years are going to be like. The contract hasn't even been approved yet and they're already running circles around it.

Grieve it? Grieve what? It's legal. We've fly planes, they fly spreadsheets. Welcome to the new United.

Originally Posted by CALFO (Post 1305382)

5-E-5 isn't implemented until 9/13. Before the company changed the bid months, there were two, 31 day bid periods after 9/13. Now, with the change, there are two, 31 day bid periods after 9/13. Net change? Zero.

Originally Posted by CALFO (Post 1305398)

This has changed with the JCBA.