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Old 12-19-2012, 09:08 PM   #21  
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Originally Posted by Boomvang View Post
12 year pay from prior to JCBA:

CAL 737-800 CA: $169.33
UAL 777/747 CA: $191.79


I think this is what they are referring to. Do you have differing information?
Yep and Widebody CAP pays more at UAL than narrowbody at CAL.

So the previous statement is REFUTED.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:24 AM   #22  
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They also might consider what the career expectations (I.e. career earnings) are of one junior pilot who is an FO and will be an FO for many years who eventually makes widebody captain when he's 64, vice another junior pilot who is a 737 captain at 35 and remains a 737 captain or better for the next 30 years. The mere existence of more larger planes at one airline doesn't necessarily mean career expectations are better.
C'mon, dude. You're not supposed to argue using facts and well-reasoned logic! You're supposed to repeat the talking points.

"Cal was going bankrupt."
"United bought Cal."
"United parked the 737s in anticipation of the merger...er acquisition."
"United has more widebodies, and being a widebody pilot is the only measure of career success, regardless of pay or qol."

Don't deviate from the script! (Ok... sarcasm off)

Disclaimer: please don't take offense if this is genuinely what you believe. I just hear these "talking points" so often I start to feel like I'm listening to a White House press briefing.

Last edited by NavyCal; 12-20-2012 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:26 AM   #23  
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Originally Posted by NavyCal View Post
C'mon, dude. You're not supposed to argue using facts and well-reasoned logic! You're supposed to repeat the talking points.

"Cal was going bankrupt."
"United bought Cal."
"United parked the 737s in anticipation of the merger...er acquisition."
"United has more widebodies, and being a widebody pilot is the only measure of career success, regardless of pay or qol."

Don't deviate from the script! (Ok... sarcasm off)

Disclaimer: please don't take offense if this is genuinely what you believe. I just hear these "talking points" so often I start to feel like I'm listening to a White House press briefing.
Yeah, there's never been any "talking points" spewed from any CAL pilots on ths forum.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:34 AM   #24  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomvang
12 year pay from prior to JCBA:

UAL 767 CA: $160.53
CAL 737-800 CA: $169.33

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAX Pilot
Yep and Widebody CAP pays more at UAL than narrowbody at CAL.

So the previous statement is REFUTED.
There you have it. According to the above statement the 767 is no longer considered a widebody so we can remove that argument from SLI consideration, right??
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:45 AM   #25  
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Where will the UAL furloughs end up on the list?
Adam,
I've considered this and cannot understand how any furloughees could expect to be anywhere but the bottom of the list (stapled below all active pilots). This is not meant maliciously or without respect. I was furloughed from my last airline and understand the hardships that it means. However, furlough means laid off. How could a person who is not employed with United REASONABLY expect to be placed above a person that is currently employed? We could argue career expectations, number of wide bodies, financial health of both companies, etc. all day. The bottom line is a furloughed pilots is no different than Joe Pilot from Express. They both are NOT employed by United.

Regardless, there is nothing that you or I or anyone else could argue on this forum that would alter the outcome of the SLI. It simply doesn't make any sense to me that the answer to your question is not obvious. Good luck and hopefully in the end we are all Captains a lot sooner than we all expected!
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:18 AM   #26  
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Where will the UAL furloughs end up on the list?

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Originally Posted by cadetdrivr View Post
Thats the $64k question and nobody knows with the new policy. CAL will scream "staple" and UAL will scream "longevity" and the arbitrators will sort it out. The only thing that is known is that they will be senior to any new hires.

Note that CAL also had pilots on furlough when the merger was announced that are in the same boat if the snapshot is merger announcement (or closing) in 2010.

According to the UAL captain who was one of the pilot neutrals for the AAA/AWA arbitration, pilots who were furloughed at the time the merger was announced should go to the bottom of the combined list, with no credit for longevity.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:28 AM   #27  
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According to the UAL captain who was one of the pilot neutrals for the AAA/AWA arbitration, pilots who were furloughed at the time the merger was announced should go to the bottom of the combined list, with no credit for longevity.
Yeah.....then ALPA merger policy was CHANGED!

They will get credit for their longevity.

Just because a guy has been furloughed doesn't mean that they don't have good career expectations going forward. We have a massive amount of retirements coming, and some of these folks are looking at being senior widebody captains eventually (some very senior).

Don't forget that ALPA lost AAA/AWA due to the crappy old SLI policy. The policy has been changed and the arbitrator MUST adhere to it. Past SLI arguments are useless.

It's going to be a tough road for the furloughees in SLI, but they do have some good arguments to help them avoid being stapled.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:35 AM   #28  
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According to the UAL captain who was one of the pilot neutrals for the AAA/AWA arbitration, pilots who were furloughed at the time the merger was announced should go to the bottom of the combined list, with no credit for longevity.
And what did the CAL pilot neutral say?
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:38 AM   #29  
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Yeah.....then ALPA merger policy was CHANGED!

They will get credit for their longevity.

Just because a guy has been furloughed doesn't mean that they don't have good career expectations going forward. We have a massive amount of retirements coming, and some of these folks are looking at being senior widebody captains eventually (some very senior).

Don't forget that ALPA lost AAA/AWA due to the crappy old SLI policy. The policy has been changed and the arbitrator MUST adhere to it. Past SLI arguments are useless.

It's going to be a tough road for the furloughees in SLI, but they do have some good arguments to help them avoid being stapled.
Are you saying it is reasonable to expect someone not employed by United to displace or jump ahead of a current United employee? How can someone not employed with a company expect to have any expectations with that company, much less better expectations than a person currently employed with that company?

Again, as rough as it may sound, furloughs are FORMER employees of United and have as much career expectations as Joe Pilot at Express whose Dad is a chief pilot.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:42 AM   #30  
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Default Q&A from July 2010

YOU’VE GOT QUESTIONS, WE’VE GOT ANSWERS
We’ve sent a team around the system recently to gather some of your questions regarding the seniority integration process. Below are some of the answers to those questions to help better explain the integration process.

Q: When will the list be done?

A: As of this writing, we have completed the final stages of the verification process. We have exchanged the certified seniority lists with the UAL Merger Committee, and the next step is to enter direct negotiations with the UAL Merger Committee. That will occur near the time you receive this newsletter. If we are unable to reach agreement, we will enlist the services of a mediator. If mediation is unsuccessful, we will enter arbitration. Arbitration will not begin until the JCBA is ratified. You should understand that MEC and membership ratification are not part of this process.

Q: Why are we waiting for a ratified JCBA prior to entering arbitration?

A: Simply put, waiting for a ratified JCBA prior to entering arbitration helps the joint pilot group obtain the best possible contract because management needs an integrated seniority list (ISL) prior to realizing maximum financial and operational synergies from the merger.

Q: Can a more senior United pilot bump me out of my captain seat after the integration?

A: We don’t envision this scenario because virtually all seniority integrations have included a “no bump, no flush” clause. Just as in a normal system bid, the “no bump” provision prevents a pilot from being displaced by a more senior pilot. For example, the most senior pilot on the list (who is not currently based in CLE) decides that he wants to fly as a captain on a B-737 out of CLE. If no vacancy exists for CLE B-737 captains, then that pilot cannot be awarded that position and must wait for a vacancy to be awarded that seat. The “no flush” provision maintains the initial status quo and prevents massive system-wide displacements as a result of the merger.

Q: I’m a senior F/O. Should I bid captain before the merger?

A: This goes back to the old adage of “bid what you want, not what you don’t want.” While we have occasionally made fun of that phrase, it’s good advice here. Remember, what we are doing is merging numbers on the seniority lists, NOT the positions that you are currently flying in. You use your system seniority to bid the flying position you want. You will not be disadvantaged in an integration because you chose to remain a senior first officer as opposed to bidding for a junior captain spot. In summary, a Continental pilot who is junior to you before the merger will still be junior to you after the merger.

What happens to all of the data that you’re collecting?

First, it’s a requirement of ALPA Merger and Fragmentation Policy and the joint Protocol Agreement (between the CAL and UAL MECs) to collect and verify very specific employment data. Next, the data provides the opportunity to correct a few minor errors that have persisted on each of our lists for years, such as an incorrect birthday. The data will then be used in an aggregate manner during the seniority list integration process to negotiate the most fair and equitable list possible.

How are the lists going to be integrated?

It is simply impossible to predict the outcome and it would be irresponsible of us to even try. Multiple integration methodologies are possible and we will analyze all of them. It is our mandate to defend every single Continental pilot’s seniority rights from the most senior pilot to the most junior pilot on our seniority list. Let’s be clear: there will be no re-ordering of Continental seniority list as a result of this data collection and verification.
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