Early Outs
 

What's up with the Early Retirement Program. Is it closed? How many takers? Anybody hear?

Sled

Nevermind. Just looked it up. Closes Nov 30th. Anybody considering it? I have only flew with 1 guy who says he put his name in the hat.

I saw a chief pilot update that only 29 had applied so far (about a week or so ago). I'm not surprised it's so low. If you look at the numbers, it only makes sense for those who are already leaving. Otherwise, not worth it.

I flew with a couple that sounded interested, not including me. I would do it in a heartbeat, but found out I am not eligible. I was VF on the date of signing.

Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy Guppy...saw your profile tag-line, couldn't help myself

could be worse...

Boeing 737: Tin mouse, Maggot, Pocket Rocket Socket, FLUF (Fat Little Ugly ***), Light Twin, Baby Boeing, Fat Freddy, Guppy, Thunder Guppy (series 1/200), Yuppy Guppy, Super Guppy (series 3/4/500), Pig, Bobby (BOeing BaBY), Rudder Rotor, Fat Albert.

Just sayin'

I wish people would stop making fun of the Guppy. Its such a cute little airplane and doesn't deserve it.

Guppy....Guppy....now it's worse...GUPPY!!

Now say it again with the music from "Jaws" going in your head...guppy....

Or imagine that Bacon Bits dog food commercial with the dog nose behind the camera....GUPPY!!!!!

Flying this week with a guy who is leaving 5 years early (age 60) and starting a new career. I'm buying the beer!

Or you could say he is retiring on-time instead of hanging-on until 65. Thank you John Prater.

Well at least everyone below you will be glad to hear you are gone at 60 or will it be 55?

Oh yeah?
 

I'll bet he doesn't go. I heard about this guy or that guy for 35 years that was going to leave early.... no one ever did.

My Father voluntarily retired (767 CA) in 2003 at 56... so it does happen on occasion.

Rare, rare, rare....
 

I agree it is statistically possible, but....

I told my wife about the early-out program. She said why would someone quit to clear $30k for 5 years when they could just get "dizzy" and take the LTD, $96k a year after taxes til 65?

Why indeed?

TW

So in other words lie and deliberately lose your medical. As more pilots abuse the system, the costs go up for everyone else to support the system while you play golf for an extra 5 years. Brilliant. I'll stick to using LTD if and only if the FAA doc actually finds a real problem that has no quick resolution. If we end up losing the LTD system down the road due to it no longer being sustainable, I will happily donate vacation days to pilots with an actual need as I have in the past.
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Eddie, it's in the contract and paid for in negotiating capital. Lousy deal or not. Might want to lay off the koolaid a bit.

Sure it is. The company pays 2/3 the cost of the program and the pilot group pays 1/3 via monthly payroll deduction. I'm glad we have the program and want to see it continue on in future contracts. However, are you interested in paying inflated premiums down the road so otherwise healthy and fully capable pilots can sit at home for years while you continue to work? Sorry Dave, I don't have any interest in paying for fraud. Objecting to that is kool-aid drinking? Wow.

Cuz, while I'd agree with your premise about this constituting fraud and hurting the pilot group, I have a hard time getting too worked up about it. The reality is management games the system and uses every loophole to maximize their pay. We're playing by separate rules. If the leaders in corporate America actually showed some ethics and led, the workers might actually follow the positive example. Right now anyone gaming the LTD system (if anyone is actually gaming it) is just following the negative example set by the corporate "leadership" in this country. No, this isn't just an airline issue.

Call it what ever you want but it is still fraud and unethical. Explain that
to your kid how daddy or mommy really isn't sick but he or she is taking
money from an insurance company saying he or she is. It has nothing to do
corporate leadership, that is just rationalization. To lie about your physical
ability or lack of to the FAA is fraud, then to take insurance money. It is not only
playing the system but illegal and unethical, plain and simple.

The big downside is that at some outfits you lose the option to take a lump sum retirement payout. You are pension only. Most pensions do not have cost of living escalators.

+1. I still have to look look myself in the mirror every morning. The fact that someone else doesn't share that ideal simply doesn't matter when it comes to how I choose to live my life and how I choose to educate my children (through my actions.) Call me naive, but we're really better than insurance fraud, right?

Scott

That might be a factor for CAL guys with a frozen A-fund, but UAL guys own all of their B-fund so I don't think there would be a problem with a rollover with all normal requirements met.

One factor to consider with LTD is that there are no contributions made to the B/C fund, all company contributions stop. In addition, pilots are required to pay their own medical/life insurance premiums. The early out program offers retirement payments and payments into RHA.

All true, but is it really an issue? I'm sure there are some doing it, but I don't know any, nor have I even heard of any scamming LTD. What I find ironic is that employees are held and hold ourselves to a different standard than senior management. When management invents a way to increase their compensation above what was previously agreed through... say... basing retirement on a multiple of, rather than actual years served, or... say... extending the time allowed to meet a performance incentive, it's perfectly legal. Like you said, scamming LTD is illegal, unethical and hurts the pilot group at large, but I believe it's so rare as to be insignificant and every pilot I've known who used LTD was doing everything possible to get their certificate back. Meanwhile, because they have the influence to change the rules midgame, deals adding millions in compensation at the top are legal. Forgive me if, while I disapprove I'm less than outraged about the possibility of someone scamming LTD.

Is there a link somewhere to view the overall seniority list, including retirement dates?

I tend to agree, your points concerning management always lining their pockets are valid. It is probably never going to be a widespread problem, there is always going to be pilots scamming. Let's hope that the few scammers that cheat the system don't cause this benefit to be too costly and we go back to the company determining who qualifies for LTD.

If you are a United pilot, you can go to the System Seniority list to see everyone.

On APC, go to "Airline Profiles," "Legacy," "United," and at the bottom of the page, it shows retirement numbers per year, through 2031.

Thanks, I was looking for something on flying together that had more of a breakdown by BES rather than just a total on APC.

Take a look at the most recent equipment bid award...it has every pilot in every BES.

There is also a document next to it that shows only pilots who changed positions on the bid (by seat) vs the entire seniority list. Easy to see where the movement is.

Yes, and this is what we always have known as an award. Never had that big ol' cumbersome whole seniority list thing. WOW. That is like trying to read War and Peace. :eek:

As with everything there has been and will continue to be change. The big award is cumbersome but if they didn't put it out, someone would complain. People asked for a short award and that was published as well. Now there should be no reason to complain...

I don't think you have fully thought that out Dave. Pilot's are footing the bill for 1/3 of the cost - it ain't sick leave - we ALL will be subsidizing the cost of a healthy pilot going out on our dime. We are not the Federal Government Dave, we all share the pain of abuse.

And we all know that insurance providers never use their own investigators to, well, investigate.

Steady, Eddie. It's a long fall from that high horse you got there. If you qualify for sick leave, you almost certainly qualify for LTD. That means Long Term Disability. In fact, you can't even do it unless you burn through most of your sick leave, which means you can't legally qualify for a first class medical certificate.

I never said I'd do it, but at the same time, my wife knows, as do I, that passing a first class physical isn't a sure thing. I've had my challenges, and had I not fought to keep it, I'd have lost it. How hard would you say a pilot should have to fight, and how much money should a pilot have to spend before it'd pass your moral sniff test? Speaking of moral sniff tests, I'd say CAL...oops, I meant UAL management has set the bar pretty low, a fork of a lot lower than I or any of my friends would stoop to.

Do you plan on donating your unused sick leave to Smisek and his band of thieves when you've had enough? I don't.

Are you one of those guys that wishes every pilot senior to you would fall over dead? I'm not, and there are plenty of pilots senior to me.

I've donated thousands of $ worth of vacation days to more than a few pilots that I've never met before, BTW. Haven't ever asked for any, ever, either. I don't think I would, if the situation presented itself.

TW