Bidding Question
 

Hey guys I've only been bidding for a few months but I have a question. I essentially waived everything I possibly could for April and did not get a line. A guy who is 5 or 6 numbers junior to me got the last line however. I'm just wondering how this is possible. I put every possible trip in my pool and waived everything. I could understand if I still didn't get a line after doing this, however I don't understand how someone six numbers below me got one. Just trying to figure out this system (as I'm sure everyone is). The guy that got the line is just off IOE. I didn't think we did OE lines anymore (I only have about 40 hours in type and haven't gotten one). Can anyone shed some light? Thanks.

The simple answer is that you are BELOW the G-line. You are not guaranteed a line.

I know it is infuriating to see a junior pilot receive a line and you get reserve. The most likely case is that the junior pilot had some type of credit already on their line (vacation, training, carry in) that made it easier to construct a legal line with the remaining trips available. Most likely, those same trips would not build you a legal line. You can always file a PBS dispute but your cards have already been dealt. Sometimes you win, most likely you will lose (but you get some cockamamie excuse as to why you couldn't get a line). All of this is perfectly allowed under the UPA.

Once you are ABOVE the G-line you are guaranteed a line. No need to waive anything (it could help, it could hurt also).

Looking at that individuals line it appears that they have 11:12hrs of non fly credit. Probably from the IOE days. This means that the 83 hr line they got was only 72hrs of awarded credit.

You would have to look at what the credit range was for the EWR 320 fleet but my guess is that it is slightly north of 72 hours. For this reason the line would have been illegal to award you.

The PBS system awards credit and NOT flight time. So sometimes this will cause lines to go junior, when junior guys have union days or vacation or MLA.

Ok I think I get it. Thanks guys. Im not sour about it, just wanted to make sure I understood how it works!

I agree with all of the comments and advice so far...but will add this:

You can log on to prefbid.com and chat with live PBS helpers. If they can't answer your question, you can file a dispute through PBS. Good luck!

Ok i thought I was with you but now i'm lost again. Looking at my award report, there were 4 remaining when it got to me, which are the 4 trips that went to the more junior person. These trips equaled 72 hours exactly. There are several people with 72 hour lines and below (some are at 70). Again I had no restrictions on my bid. Every trip was in the pool. Again, im just trying to understand the system.

That's the painful part, it looks like it could be built for you. As others have mentioned, try prefbid, a PBS trainer in the crew room or just file a dispute. Either way, you will get an answer.

There is always some minute detail that would cause the line to fail for you while it works for someone junior. Seniority below the G-line means very little, above the G-line you are guaranteed a line.

Here is a situation like yours I have seen. A pilot, 1% below the G-line, waives everything and bids for a line. He has no planned absences, training, vacation, etc for the month. Six pilots junior to him got a line while he got reserve. Five of these guys had a training or vacation event, the sixth simply had a carry in.

Obviously there were plenty of trips to build this pilot a line. So not being able to hit the minimum credit time required was not the issue. The reason he didn't get a line had to do with overall reserve coverage needs. Since he had no absenses for the month, he could provide reserve coverage on days the other pilots could not because of their planned absences. So, PBS put him on reserve and gave the other 6 lines. It stinks, but that is the way it is. Sometimes you get penalized in a situation like this by going into the month with no obstacles that PBS has to work around.

Go ahead and file a dispute anyway. Don't be surprised if credit time or a legality is not the issue that the above is the problem.

Here's another reason a line award below the G-line can fail.

You have reserve days lined up until the last day of the previous bid period and the PBS software is only able to build a line with a trip that begins at the beginning of the subsequent bid period. PBS will view the reserve days (even long call) as duty and will deny an award due to FAR 117 constraints. Happened to me last month. Dispute it (drop down menu on the PBS bid page) and you should get an answer as to what happened. Then again, PBS may have made a mistake.

To continue the discussion lets just say he files a dispute and wins, what would that accomplish? They aren't going to take away that other guys line and give it to him. What could he get that would compensate for the error?

Ya, that junior line holder is 13 numbers junior to me and I got reserve, with my very last preference (3 days off between work blocks). Regardless of how PBS "works" there should be no way someone coming off IOE gets a line while so many of us senior to him/her commute to EWR to sit for 6 days and not get used. It's stupid.

Did you waive everything? If someone below you waived more than you then your BGs could fail when theirs might not. Here's the "waive everything, abuse me, I'll try anything to get a line, even if it's worse than reserve, where's my copy of Dante's Inferno, oh why was I even born," Bid Group,

1. WAIVE Min Days Between Work Blocks 1
2. WAIVE 1 in 7 Day off in Base
3. WAIVE Double Duty Restriction
4. WAIVE Duty in consecutive WOCLs
5. AWARD Work 01Apr 00:01 - 30Apr 23:59

I've heard ppl commuting in and sitting 6 days a lot. Are they converting you guys to short call a lot? I havent been getting that many. If they convert me day one and dont use me, i go back home. Even if its only for a night its worth it. I guess that may not work with longer commutes tho. Mines only an hour.

That was my exact bid!

meh, i have a 4 hr west bound commute thats VERY competitive. And I'll usually get short call at least once per reserve block.

Well there's nothing more you could have done then. A PBS dispute will tell you why someone junior got the line. From several occurrences on my own awards, carryin conflict or non-credit days are often the reason.

Hate to beat a dead horse here guys, but the same thing happened for June. Multiple people below me are getting lines when im waiving everything and putting every single available trip in my pool. None of the people below me had carry in, vacation, or anything else that would add to their line value. I dont understand why this keeps happening. I must be making a mistake somewhere. From what I understand, im telling the system to give me absolutely anything but reserve and im still getting reserve while multiple pilots below me are getting lines in the high 80s with no additional credit coming in before hand. I know, waa waa cry me a river. Its not that I didnt get a line next month that bothers me, its that I thought I understand this stuff but I still dont. Ive gotten some training from ALPA and thought I was doing what they said, but im obviously not. If anyone who's not a bus fo in ewr feels like PMing me with advise that'd be great.
Ill get this someday! haha

No waa waa involved here, just lack of transparency in the logic of the awards. At the top right of the CCS PBS page there's a drop down menu that has "Disputes" as an option. When the dispute window opens I recommend you file a dispute simply asking what you've asked in your post here. I did this for several months until the logic behind the awards made more sense to me. This is a free service. You deserve to know what's going on. It's your QOL. They work for you. Ask them.

Also the folks at prefbid.com can also review the award and give pointers on your bid.

You should have Award Work L-- as your last line bid. If you are below the G line then submit a R bid AFTER that line bid. Look at your reason report in PBS.

Thanks guys, im planning on filing just to get an answer. There were 19 trips available when it got to me and it simply says (as it always does) "requested award prevents solution completion". Well then why did all those trips get used to construct ppls lines below me? None of us had carry in or anything to prevent us from getting those trips. They had the same clean slate that I had. They simply got the same schedule I could have gotten. Oh well I know it happens, just frustrating is all :)

Prefbid.com has a live chat button, I got some help from there.

There is a little more to it than already stated. This piece of garbage PBS Software Logic will put you on reserve even if you are above the G-Line.

If your last Bid Group is a Reserve Bid Group to protect yourself against shifting G-Lines, it will ignore your previous Line Bid Groups and go straight to your very last Reserve Bid Group if it allow the software to more easlily solve the bidding equation.

It does that even though it could have built you a line with a Line Bid Group ABOVE your Reserve Bid Group.

This is another way a junior pilot that is BELOW the G-Line can get a Line and put a more senior pilot on reserve even though he is above the G-Line.

Yup. That's the one. I think if someone below the g line does not submit a reserve BG then it will award a reserve line to anyone above the g line who did have a reserve BG anywhere in their bid and award a line to the guy below the g line thereby "satisfying" both bids.

Exactly what just happen to me (DCA756). I am two numbers below the G line. I put a Reserve group after my regular Line bid groups.
The Reserve bid groups was to protect some days off. Guys junior to me both got regular lines with the days off that I wanted. It's bull crap, because PBS could have built me a regular line with the days off that I wanted. Lesson learned.

Problem is it's a catch-22. You DO want to protect a day off, line or reserve, but if you do not bid reserve to protect yourself you'll get a line but no day off, but if you submit a reserve BG then it will give that to you even if you could have held it with a line BG. The proof here is did a junior pilot get a line AND the day off you wanted?

Yes....:mad:

Lesson: if I want a line and do not need a specific day off I should not submit a reserve bid group. Unfortunately, there's usually at least one day I need off. This gives me to a reserve line when it in many cases it shouldn't.

Anyone in EWR 737 FO who wants a line and they are on reserve. Pm me. I just had a kid and wanted to have Tuesday-Thursday off. I got a line that workes Saturday-Tuesday. 88 hrs credit, 950 in per deim. 60 bucks in int override. Mostly non commutable. Not sure if we can line swap here at UAL but if you are interested I will do all the legwork to make this happen.

Had a similar issue on 76t. Had 7 guys junior get a line when my last bid group was award work. The only other thing I had was a RSV group with days off at the end of june. All of the lines below me would have been legal but when I live chatted with PBS guy he said that it was denied due to optimization and that it would have affected others below me...

Congrats 82!

I hope you can get your sched worked out the way you want.

Each night between the 6th and the 11th the system goes off line late at night for about a half hour to load in the latest absence and other data. This is why the G-line bounces around, which is a big deal for those hovering right around it. After the final update late at night on the 10th / very early morning of the 11th, the G-line is locked in. If you go to the System documents tab, you will see two documents that begin with "SSC". The first one is dated the 6th which is the initial G-line prediction. The second one is dated the 11th which is the final G-line lock in for bid processing. Check the SSC 11th document sometime on the 11th or before bids close on the 12th if you are close to the G- line. It will give you the file number of the G-man that will be used when bids are processed. It should be reflected on the crew info page also on the 11th, but I would check the SSC 11th document to verify.

Great info. Thanks.

Not quite so! That was what I was told by the Pref Bid guys too! The G-Line is NEVER "Locked In!" This is a current dispute between ALPA and the Company. The company maintains the G-Line can change inside of the 42 hours specified in the CBA. Happened in DCA in April. The Company is stating that the G-Line is an estimate and therefore they can change it.

This was a topic of discussion at the MEC meeting last week and has not been resolved.

Garbage software in garbage out!