How pathetic are we?
 

AMR posted record profits, and we make $28 million in the 4th quarter?

He asked rhetorically while reeling from the disappointment of his failed iPad trainer bid. :D

The lack of flight ops leadership, vision, and coordination will continue to put our collective performance on the low side of mediocre. Was it Old Mako who offered some great advice: "Embrace the Suck".

Stand up for every contractual benefit/obligation you're due, but at the end of the day, it's just a job. Let it go. I had a flight ops supervisor offer some refreshing candor in December: "You're just a number, don't ever forget that".

We have yet to see.

Yes but since amr flt ops employees aren't materially involved with the making of the profit they won't see one cent of that profit.

Who cares how much we made at AAL? Y'all's current contract is much better than this turd we are voting on and you will continue to make more $$ than us.

Don't make the mistake of including "we" in the upper management of this company. If "we" were anywhere near as pathetically incompetent as them, there would be smoking holes and twisted metal all over the country.

TW

Some guys just need to find something to complain about.

Not to mention nothing at AA is combined yet. Lowest fuel cost in a decade and flight crews still basically operating under a BK contract. When everything is combined and fuel goes back up, then I'll be impressed.

Wouldn't things being combined, also known as synergy, result in more profit?

United 320 burns the same gas a AA 320 burns. Seems like a wash to me.

True, but did the aforementioned contract account for the billion dollar difference last quarter versus United; doubtful :rolleyes:

Frankly, hundreds of thousands of people care.

The plight of 14,000 pilots doesn't mean too much to them.

" Can't see the forest for the trees "
Definition: An expression used of someone who is too involved in the details of a problem to look at the situation as a whole

Well gosh, I guess I better get my stuff in. Sounds like the AA operation is a lot better! Thanks for the info! I'll make sure to stay tuned.

Operations at AA are probably better. There is more to an "operation" than a pilot contract; conceding that United's contract in better than AA's.

AA has better on time performance and better financial performance.

Ignore the facts if you want, they wont change.

The true test is going to be the operational merger of reservations systems, etc etc. THEN we will get a real comparison to where things stand. I'm sure they will beat the stuffing out of our team, but they haven't taken any of the expensive and complicated steps as of yet.

#1: AMR and USAir pilots are not enjoying the pay and benefits of UPA 2012! AMR and USAir combined is a bit bigger then UAL in employees staffing; Compare their expenses to ours:
AMR: Salaries, wages and benefits: $2,089(millions) http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...R5cGU9MQ==&t=1

UAL Salaries, wages and benefits: $2,251 (millions) http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings....MGxcns/lStdg==


#2: United loses on hedged fuel; Cash received (paid) on settled hedges that did not qualify for hedge accounting (b) $(151) (negative in millions)

Let us wait and see how AMR and USAir will do after they signed new CBA and start revitalizing their fleets ;-|

Pilots at UAL complain about the size of their profit sharing check and then come on here and tell the world how horrible that UAL is. They post threads with titles like this and everyone chimes in.

Have you guys looked at AMR's thread about their "Banner year?" They don't sound too happy over there either. They seem to be just as upset with their airline as you guys sound to be here. I know the negativity will never stop at any airline, but Im really tired of the grass is always greener threads.

Happy to be here, there are a lot of places that I've been that are way worse and I have friends that are in a lot worse places than United. Enjoy life.

American isn't hedging any fuel. They have been paying market price. A risky move of they part that is paying off now.

So yes, it burns the same amount of fuel, but no, it is not a wash. Fifi costs more to operate at United.

Lemme guess... Turkish Prison?

And, from the "Tea Leaves" on the internet it looks like the "turd" will pass and to me it's a blatant attempt to undercut us and Delta. Gotta love pilots :rolleyes:

Between this place and the other board it is clear a career at UAL is a foolish endeavor. All those that try it are clear individuals lacking the basic aptitude that reveals UAL sucks.

Btw, I love ignoring guys that blather on like the thread originator. After 10 mins they usually shut up. Sorry dude, I understand our current problems, but moaning about it for 3 hrs doesn't change the fact that the BOD isn't changing things. I happen to have better things to think of in life . Worse case scenario is when they switch to dissertations on NRA and Obama related issues. "Interesting insight, btw I'm having dinner with an old buddy (imaginary friend) once we get to the layover." *slam click*

Not following ya. Either way we undercut you - via voting yes or no. We have cost neutral arbitration with a no vote that will result in 1.7 billion less than the TA over the course of it. Not to mention no min calendar day, no profit sharing, 321 pay is same as 319, crappier LTD, excise tax on health care in a few years most likely, and much, much more as the list of substandard work rules. So yes, we are in line to undercut you whether we pass this or not.

Couple of things. Yes, we complain, yes we work for an incredibly inept management, despite what you may think, no I'm not complaining about profit sharing. I view that as a bonus--great if I get it, but I'm not holding my breath. The incredibly paltry sum of 4th quarter earnings, even including the fuel hedge debacle, (yet again,) has me worried that our company won't survive the next downturn. Yes, we are pathetic, and no I'm not an alarmist that comes on here for 10 minutes despite what some may think. Folks, like, Mako, I'm here for the long haul.

Second, I'm sure that one of the reasons AA is doing so well is they have a great number of our former premier passengers, enabling record profits. P**** e'm off and they'll run away in droves.

Third, Unless you work here, anyone on the outside could not possibly comprehend the astonishing incompetence of our management, starting at the top. Yes, the board is doing nothing to change it. That makes it all the more alarming. Embrace the suck, it's here to stay. Can I make it to retirement? It's starting to look like a long shot.

Fourth, "Operations at AA are probably better. There is more to an "operation" than a pilot contract; conceding that United's contract in better than AA's.

AA has better on time performance and better financial performance.
Ignore the facts if you want, they wont change."

AA seems capable of learning from our mistakes. I do foresee some missteps, but in general I do not see them committing the magnitude of incompetence we have seen. That scares me, and should scare our CEO and board. If they are doing this well without the merger complete, they will be a force to recon with for a long time. Time I'm not sure we at UAL have.

Yes and yes. We at UAL are not here to compete or provide a reasonable product or service to our customers, we are here to pay management and board bonuses. Comparable to AA operations, not yet, as was pointed out. APA and new parts, have been over a decade without a modern contract, and the differences are great. However, I'm guessing those differences do not add up to a $1.4B.

We most definitely and assuredly suck.

Please don't get me wrong. I will work as hard as I can to ensure the success of this company, my future depends on it. Do I whine about it, yes--I'm a pilot. I'm just trying to be a realist.

Dave your points are spot on. I share your concern. Until these wide gaps in performance are closed, it's hard not to feel vulnerable. Somebody has to be the first to falter in a severe economic downturn / industry crisis, which we will no doubt see again. As it stands right now, that would appear to be us.

Anytime I login here; I read the same thing over and over. Majority are experts in corporate management, financial gurus, and mentalists/fortune-tellers.
If you feel, that UAL will not survive next economical downturn, you should quit now and start working on that "backup plan" ahead of the rest of the sheeps here, so you can take an advantage of all of the opportunities out there. Why suffer? Perhaps start your own airline and show the rest of us how it supposed to be done.;)
Otherwise, stay strong one union: Beeeee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=QcE5aDTszrY

If the bear is chasing your group, you don't have to win the race, but you don't want to come in last. It gets uglier. After the bear claws you unconscious, the blue collar vultures fly in writing letters and fight over how to divide your carcass while the white collar vultures just rip out your entrails piece by piece. The process is quite efficient until you are picked clean.

What Dave is pointing out, which is indisputable, is that our financial and operational performance metrics are significantly lagging that of our competitors. Senior management has admitted this, and all we can hope is that the gaps are soon closed. Will it happen? Maybe, maybe not. We will have to wait and see. If you are comfortable with where we are at right now, then you are a fool.

I've got too many years in to bother moving on. I'm sure you've met some lifer Captain types at Jetlink that feel the same way. By the way, I don't want this company to simply limp along until I am "done" with it only to ultimately fail. I sincerely hope that every half-winger has a more stable and lucrative career than I have had. Our current state of mediocrity puts us all at an elevated risk level.

Howgozit?
 

Couldn't agree more. The current state of UAL is worse than I ever seen. I am a 95 hire, and don't want to start over at another carrier. I am starting the process to go back to flying contracts. I don't think anybody has a great career expectation here, and I am putting my future where my mouth is.

I cannot effect change at UAL. I can only effect change in my life.

The big difference between then and now is our significant pricing power brought about by consolidation and massive ancillary revenues gouged from the pax.

While I have no illusions that this place will ever reclaim lost glory, a marginally capable team ought to be able to keep the ship afloat in an average economic downturn. While I'm very disappointed with our performance as compared to our peers, this is pretty much what I expected. You didn't need to be Bernoulli Nostradamus to see this coming. How many quarters have we lagged (badly at times) DAL? Those guys are getting significantly more in their PS checks.

Outside of making the pax sweat in summer (and freeze in the winter) while at the gate, SE taxi and picking an optimal cruise altitude, what I do at work matters not one whit in the big scheme of things. One widebody full of misconnects will trump my efforts every time. "For want of a nail" comes to mind. More like "for want of a few rampers".

When things do go south, I fully expect the pilot group to be tasked with saving the airline. And again, the chumps will wring their hands and capitulate and the bonus train will roll into Willis station. Pattern bargaining indeed.

Six months saved! But with our current contract, better make it twelve.

Don't confuse my screen name with call sign my friend;
I believe, that many of you are missing the fact that UAL has invested a lot in the past year; AA/USAir just starting. Give it a time and we should see.

I'm sure during Tilton's time was much better!

Valid. How quickly legacy U forgets.

Or not.

Operationally we were much better then than now.
From an IT standpoint, the comparison is laughable, likewise our FC service was superior then. Additionally, there are a ton of givebacks and concessionary allowances in the current contract which weren't in the last. Training took a massive steamer. And while I applaud the overall maintenance of the planes, the paperwork trail is now a joke. Dispatch often stinks. We are treated more like children now. So, I find your premise flawed and easily debunked. I only post this to offset the 'fog of innernets lore' lest the FNGs swallow it as gospel. I wish we could stop the internecine bickering and start focusing on repairing the next contract.

Tilton was a hatchet man who was focused on two things, labor and consolidation. The actual airline operation was certainly no worse, and I submit was actually much better than it has been these days.

Have to say I don't share the doom and gloom. I compare our numbers and operation to where we were one, two or three years ago. What DL and AA does is beyond what we can influence .
The real threat is the trio of sandbox airlines and their government subsidies...
Level playing field indeed. The current silver lining is that our fuel bill will mask mediocre management....

At least you guys at mainline don't have to deal with the incompetence olympics in DEN that is Simplicity (pronounced Simplyschitty).

I appreciate your upbeat attitude, and share it to a large degree. But our inferiority to the performance of DAL and AMR is scary. We happen to be in a boom cycle. I pray to God our management can get this thing firing on all cylinders before the next bust cycle