Reserve Extensions
 

I see the UPS contract allows for reserves to be extended into days off under certain circumstances. I also know there was a fair amount of complaining about this when the contract went active. It seems to have gone quiet, either due to improvement or acquiescence.

So what is the story? In practice, how often does this happen? All the time, every once in awhile?

Thanks.

No improvement just getting use to the new normal.

I'm sure it's pretty fleet-specific. The Z pilots were getting hammered last spring with extensions and it seems to have dropped off. A couple 747 buds are getting hit with extensions, I would guess they're short now and it's only going to get worse as the -8s show up. Can't speak to any other fleets.

Peak is coming so all bets are off for a few months.

In addition, many of the complainers (myself included) no longer bid reserve exclusively. I have taken a chance with an ugly line. With multiple JA opportunities and pages of open time available, it is somewhat possible to turn that ugly schedule into something tolerable. To be precise, I previously would bid RSV 12/13 pay periods. I am now at 50/50, if you count the pay period of OCV as reserve. :D

The extensions are definitely fleet specific. And they do see those days as days available, if needed.

After it happened 3 bid periods (every other pay period) in a row in 2016-17, I stopped bidding RSV by choice. See above ...

I've been doing same thing...No one is immune to the ups s...t storm.

It is a bad deal for the IPA. You are required to be available for work on days that are not scheduled to be reserve days..... its not a day off, its a UPS day off.

Pilots are actually requesting Personal Leaves of Absence on their days off..... must not be a day off then.

I consider the days(s) "off" after a reserve block as FLEX days. UPS still codes them as OFF in the bid package and CMS, but that's incorrect, of course.

Our $1,400,000/year IPA lawyer should have put a big no on this considerable giveback :rolleyes:

Don't blame him. I had an EB member tell me the company would never use it because they had to pay LAP and it would cost too much.

Yes, he told me with a straight face.:rolleyes:

But wait, you get late arrival pay. RSV never got that before
But wait, it can only happen once in a bid period. Ok, maybe twice if you have more than 2 reserve periods.
But wait, you have to be the only RSV available
But wait, etc, etc

It was a huge giveback from the 120 hour international extension language that we previously had. Why can't we just admit it. UPS gained operational flexibility out of RSV like they never had before.

Actually, I don't have a problem with that. But don't try to sugar coat it and say "you get LAP", or "it won't happen often", etc, etc

Its only an extra day off above the previous language, if UPS doesn't need the day. And the problem for many, with multiple RSV blocks, which RSV block is the one that they are going to need this bid period ? Sure it can only happen once, or twice in a bid period ... but with multiple RSV blocks they get a lot of coverage with "flex" days until they actually use one.

Our mistake was not in allowing this language to exist, the problem is that there is no language to create a "guaranteed day off" once a bid period after a RSV block to help control your blocks of days off. Simple concept, used at other airlines.

Whatever, RSV will just go more junior, until the furlough ... :eek:

:p:D

What does LAP mean? Also I heard from my buddy that these extensions can be very lucrative for a guy in his second year and higher. What's the pay structure when you get extended?

It was a trade and UPS is finding benefits.
Unpopular as it is, their are IPA benefits as noted. One not often stated, If not extended, 100% of the commuting pilots sitting RSV in ANC or ONT, MIA or SDF can leave 24 hours earlier than on the 2006 contract.
Most pilots are not actually extended, so most actually get the extra day off and home 24 hours earlier than 2006 contract. If extended, better benefits than 2006 contract
Regarding planning a vital appointment on the first day off after a reserve period, in all previous contracts, one could be extended for a few reasons such as weather or maintenance issues. Still can. still bid reserve occasionally ( bid for days off usually) and have in my entire career never lost sight of the fact that one can go into days off so never scheduled doctors appointments etc on first day off after block of reserve since in all contracts was a possibility of me not being at the appointment. I get the frustration but am aware of the background in our contract history (16 days reserve etc). Perhaps reduced on contract 2021

I'm not a fan of this contract giveback but on a SYSTEM WIDE BASIS , it isn't occurring at a such a frequency that we need to start losing our $hit over it. I've been extended more as a line holder than any of the guys I know who bid reserve. Yeah, I'm aware some guys are getting the shaft. As far as not being guaranteed off the day following an assignment, be it a reserve block or a line pairing, welcome to flying for a living.

LAP = Late Arrival Pay

It can be lucrative on the international trips. My experience domestically, getting home late isn't worth the extra coin that LAP provides. That's just me.

Or I got screwed on a pay calculation in their favor, imagine that ? !

Pay is figured as a new trip beginning at the end of your original trip. Usually that will be on the trip rig. If you get back 30 hours late, it'd be 30/3.75 for a credit of 8 hours. After that a penalty of 150% is added so in total you'd get paid 20 hours for getting home 30 hours late.

And if they are commercialing you back to domicile you can deviate and potentially get home close to when you were originally supposed to - It can be an awesome thing. Or it could work the other way too: get back to domicile late and over the weekend finding yourself with no good options to get home (if a commuter).

This would apply ONLY to domestic trips late if I am correct.

A international trip would pay 8x1.5 for 12 hours of pay for the late arrival. A 4 hour pay penalty for your 30 hours TAFB forced overtime into a day off.

Spoken like a SDF based pilot. Nothing personal, but most Mecca based pilots don't care about the plight of the other bases until it affects them. ONT had a gripe for a long time about co-terminal shuttles. Deaf ears until SDF pilots started doing it.

Couldn't agree more.

A little hypocritical - plenty of issues idiosyncratic to SDF, and all bases for that matter, that are irrelevant to people based elsewhere. As I said, I'm not a fan of this deal but at the same time a contract is a give and take and this was a give. And is it really a give for you guys doing RSV up there? What changed in practice? Same ship but now you get LAP, no? Plus, it's only due to staffing shortages so I'm sure it will start to bounce around the system and us SDF folk will get our karma. Regardless, no one is forcing you to bid reserve, fly the whale, or be ANC based, that's probably why it might be falling on deaf ears. But I do feel for you guys, never good when good things come to an end - pilot life.

Was waiting for the "no one is forcing you" argument. I guess even new hires have a choice?

Had our EB worked out of Anchorage they'd have found a way to limit P3s to & from Anchorage within a week or two. However, as always it's about the mother ship. At this airline much more so than at others.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/91/37/80/9...-attendant.jpg

Got it and thanks for taking the time to elaborate. My point was that under the old contract you were on call for a 15 day block. Now its 14 with frequent extensions to 15, but not always, and rarely ever to 16. Besides causing JS booking issues, what has changed in the number of days you guys are being away from home? On an annual basis?

Whale,

That, 'what about the new hires,' argument is way beneath you. Did you put a note that 1st year pay should be addressed on any of your C2016 surveys ? I did. That'd be a real way to help ALL new hires, not just ANC based ones, and would give them improvements they actually need. And as a reminder, 14 RSV DD's with extensions is, in most cases, a heck of a lot better that what they were doing before coming to UPS.

You also called me out, with Commando and using a Katy Perry lyric reference as I recently discovered (rose-colored glasses on - cute boys), as being a company cool aid drinker. Had you paid attention you'd have noticed all my posts have a tone of, "not as bad as you guys are saying it is,"-same as I'm doing on this thread. No, 'I love it here, this place is awesome,' coming from me. Yeah, you guys got the short end of the stick with this and the deal is BS but if that had happened to SDF guys I'm sure you wouldn't give the slightest ship until you decided to return to mecca for your upgrade. And unless you transfer out of ANC, theres nothing you can do about it - it is what it is - so why waste your time getting worked up about it?

At what cost to the rest of the pilot group, all 2,000+ of us non-ANC based, just so some of you guys up there can have more convenience getting to and from work...? You guys already have ANC (vs SDF), better skeds, way better catering, way better admin people, way cooler crew culture, the two best planes in the fleet, a decent CP, little exposure to worldport....

Actually, no, it was your "no one is forcing you" argument that was way beneath you.

I too am a half-full guy and you know it. 90% of the time we agree on things. However we should never use phrases such as "no one is forcing you" because junior guys/gals have no choice so yes, someone IS forcing them.
The contract is for all - so you should be cognizant of the contractual boundaries they (we) have to work within. I have a choice, yes. Many don't. If you haven't noticed I often speak out for those who're junior to me because at one point others spoke out for me and other junior pilots when I was in their shoes.

Jumpseating to & from anc is tough because we get bumped so often, sometimes we get rebooked and sometimes we don't. At three gmm meetings I heard that "we're working" on jumpseat improvements. Instead, the automatic double-booking limitation came into place. Management's wet-dream because it's a one-size-fits-all solution. We were simply looking for more seats for P7s.
In the past people listed themselves as soon as the 12 day clock started, they'd just click on several flights. Then they kept the flight with most P3s on it (lowest risk of getting bumped) and they removed themselves from the other flights. Typically within minutes. Instead of dealing with the few who didn't follow the rules we incorporated this draconian one-size-fits-all double booking limitation.

How does it work in reality? Well, when the clock starts basically whatever you click on is yours. (IF you set the timer, have great internet connection, nice computer and quick fingers.)
When you realize you're number 6 of 6 P7s (you WILL get bumped) and there's an earlier flight that has 4 P3s (max allowable) and still has an opening you now have to remove yourself from the flight you already have, you hope no one books the open flight in the meantime, oooops, it's already full, now go back really quick to put yourself back on the flight you just removed yourself from... oooops, it's already taken.. again... :( A bi-weekly reality show for many...

Now what do you think will happen once all those new hires come on property to fly the -8s? The already scarce jumpseats are only going to get even more difficult to get. In the meantime, every single -8 will be pushing from the gate with 2 empty seats because it's certified for 6 jumpseats even though it has 8. Maybe it'd be too expensive to get the faa to approve it? I don't know. However, there should be a P3 matrix to and from Anchorage. That's what we were hoping for and none of that happened.

Yes, I voted for the contract and yes I knew about this flaw in it. Doesn't mean I won't speak up about issues that are important to Anchorage based crews. ...and yes, had the EB worked out of Anchorage or had most of our managers been based in Anchorage they'd have found a solution within weeks. Out of sight out of mind.

...and to answer your earlier questions and comments:
- yes, in the survey I asked for the first year pay to be raised significantly. Also supported an "averaging out or equalizing of the first two years' pay" suggestion that was floating around.
- don't be jealous of our catering. It's slowly being contaminated with the sdf mindset. Cologne - we order online, possible worst in the system (this is Germany!? The capital of fantastic food!). The latest victim is Honolulu. Now it's all done online, no special orders, no extras... :-(
- "rose-colored glasses" - (idiomatic) An optimistic perception of something; a positive opinion; seeing something in a positive way, often thinking of it as better than it actually is.
That's what I associate rose-colored glasses with. No idea where you got your "cute boys" or Katy Perry association from?? Surely you must've heard this expression before?

I certainly don't view you as a company cool-aid drinker. Not sure why you'd think that? A bit naïve sometimes, especially in few areas of our contract maybe (see above) but the same applies to me and many others. Again, we won't always agree on everything. I am not based in sdf so I don't get all the intricacies of being mothership based and the same applies to you as far as our Anchorage domicile. I have no plans of bidding out of Anchorage and I don't "get worked up about it" but I will be speaking out about it because some people don't have the choice of bidding out of here.
It's a Contract 4 All -> and that includes Anchorage based crews.

.

For you guys considering brown and an ANC commute thru SDF, pay close, close attention to Whale's post above, particularly paragraphs 3-5. For reference, P3 is a company must ride DH. P7 is line pilot personal JS booking. ANC SDF will have a lot of crews being positive spaced both ways for various reasons which reduced the total seats avail for commuters. The matrix refers to limits our contract has for how many seats of company business personnel ups can put on a particular flight. As Whale pointed out on the SDF ANC runs, we have problematic JS bidding software worsened by frequent must ride DH changes, limited available seats combined with a growing number of people doing it all leading to one giant cluster-F in the near future for ANC commuters. You need to consider this eventuality should you be offered a class.

I have a very high regard for whale and will say that if you want to know what the guys are like at UPS, Whale is a good representative. As such, I take any disagreement with him into deep consideration. While I agree the JS booking system, the P3 issue, and the YTF didn't they certify the 800's with all avail JS's are needed changes, even if we did get these enacted it still wouldn't change the fact that there are simply not enough seats for all the guys that are or will be commuting and that is the main problem. It is not UPS's responsibility to get any of us to/from domicile. The expectation for them, and any airline for that matter, is that we live where we are based but because we can get away with it we can choose not to live in domicile just as we can choose to accept employment with all of its terms and conditions. As a newhire I was ready to relocate (temporarily) to ANC or somewhere close if the commute proved too difficult. Just the reality of the situation not my lack of seniority forcing me into something. What should be looked into is whether or not ANC should be treated as a foreign domicile - private school $$, housing allowances, yearly family tix back home, etc., that would at least make it bearable to consider moving up there. But until UPS buys a few CRJs and runs dedicated shuttles for us to commute to ANC with, expect the commute to be a pain in the rear.

Thanks for the kind words FTFF. I'll respond later.

My memory from flying the -8 at another company is that the limiting factor is the number of descent reels on board. Which is 8. So the limitation is on upper deck occupants and not necessarily on jumpseats. So, if you have a 2-person crew operating ANC-SDF, there should be 6 available cabin seats.

Definitely makes no sense why Boeing didn’t just put 10 reels on the thing. But I’m no engineer....

Please be gentle... I commute too.

Correct on all points. Here "there should be 6 available cabin seats" means there are only 2. Four are routinely used by the company for P3s which are known as "must rides" at pax airlines.

Our 400s have 6 jumpseats (2 in the cockpit and 4 in the cabin). All 6 can be used for jumpseating however usually only 2 P7s are available (P7 is what pilots use for commuting).

Our -8s will technically have 8 jumpseats (2 in the cockpit and 6 in the cabin) however only 6 can be used for jumpseating due to the limitation you mentioned.
(Note - I haven't seen our new plane yet so I'm just basing it on what I've heard.)

So the "unused" seats will serve no purpose unless the planes are re-certified. Ain't gonna happen..

My contention is that commuting to and from Anchorage will only be getting worst. I wish our company deadheaded our crew members the way FedEx does (passenger airlines). It'd open open up jumpseats for commuters.
Alternatively I'd like to see a matrix limiting the company to 1 or 2 P3s per 74 going to and from Anchorage.
I might be a dreamer but I certainly ain't the only one.

Absolutely !

They'd never agree to it, cheap bastards spend a dollar to save a dime in more ways that we can list when they screw us at every corner, but I digress.

Bid Package Matrix should be ZERO, zip, zilch, NADA.

Operational Matrix could allow 1-2 P3s. At least that is when a RSV is being used to cover a trip at the last minute when a commercial flight might not be available

True statement. But it shouldn't be their expectation.

That ignores the fact that UPS, and every other place that I have worked, benefit GREATLY by the crewmember not always being in domicile. The easiest example, the regional JA. There are others.

I'm not saying that its happening every day, but when it does, it saves their a$$

Heck yeah. Thousands I've saved them in being able to fly for well below index from home vs SDF and that will continue to add up for the next 20 something years. Also serve as pseudo reserves at gateways. Surprised they don't take more advantage of this. I was in Europe last summer when I heard of some big hole they needed to plug in CGN. Never even got a JA call but could have been there in a few hours. For the right price, that is.

Haha, no reason for me to be un-gentle... :D

I agree with pretty much your entire post (and I feel the same way about your perspective btw., like the common sense, upbeat and to-the-point attitude).
I'd only like to add that although ups would like for us to live near our domiciles - it is NOT required, which of course is driving some of our managers nuts.

However, I don't blame new-hires for not wanting to live in Anchorage. Alaska is a beautiful place but winters can be harsh and long. The main issue for new hires is the what-iffs scenarios.

We're hiring and things are looking great, right? Well, wouldn't you say that '04-'06, maybe even '07 period looked about as promising? ..and then it wasn't anymore?
Sure, different scenarios, different conditions, I get it. However, as pilots we always plan for the worst case situation in flight. Many of us do the same with our daily lives. We all sign up for health care insurance, mutual aid, supplemental insurance, etc. Just-in-case.

Last time many of the new-hires who moved to Anchorage ended up being furloughed. They didn't get any help whatsoever with getting back to lower 48 to look for other jobs (at the time jobs in AK were almost impossible to find).
A guy I know paid over $40K to move his family back to lower 48.
When they got recalled many, if not most, had to pay for their own hotel rooms because the company viewed them as Anchorage based during the furlough even though many of them were sdf-based, well at least on paper (displaced out of anc but never finished training).

So why risk it now? Better build up some seniority 'furlough-buffer'. Note - I'm not predicting a furlough, not at all!
Just saying that holding off on actually moving to anc makes sense. Especially for new-hires.

So even though the company would like for us to live in our domiciles they can't force us. I sincerely hope that our union and the company start looking for commuting solutions because it'll probably get worst once the new planes start arriving.

Typical sdf-anc commute... :rolleyes:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/164/3...2e1f14b42c.jpg

Interesting but incorrect belief. UPS not interested...just like 100% International commercial travel. It's relative to the many unique challenges faced by our ANC pilots. Some fixed, some unable this round.

You obviously know this subject more than I do and I respect that.
The next year - year and a half - will be very "interesting". To say the least. :confused:
I just don't see how we're all gonna make our jumpseats to and from work. ..and I emphasize the "to" segment.
After all, we can always stay in Alaska an extra day if unable to cath the flight home. Been there done that.

Going to work is a different story. ..and I typically catch a ride at least a day early. :(
(yes, I'm 'somewhat' paranoid and don't want to be late.. EVER!)