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Old 08-23-2019, 03:40 AM   #141  
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Originally Posted by Hellafo View Post
Not a question about pay but more so schedule while on first year. From what I have gathered you could get a choppy schedule with not enough day to commute. Has this happened to you? I'm more acquainted with the 4 on 4 off airline type schedule, would LOVE a 2 on 2 off type schedule, just trying to understand how people deal with anything other than that.
If you search posts by me (to include FTv2 and FTFF) Ive put out examples of these kinds of lines. Sorry, I dont remember when/where. Consistent 4 on 3 off doesnt exist here unless you are looking at turns (locals, out and backs). We have week on off that can turn into 5 on 9 off if you can get the ones that go to your hometown which also have double deadheads. Otw its more like 6 on 8 off with a favorable commute scheme. There are a few lines here that go M-F, 3 out of the 4 weeks in a pay period (1 week is completely off). Turn lines are like this and generally only work 3/4 weeks.

The base trips/base lines are what you are referring to as choppy. For these you are looking at UPS owning you for some combination of 14 (up to 16)/28 days. There is no weekly consistency or any pattern, just a bunch of pairings of different lengths thrown together in various combinations. For commuters these tend to be unfavorable as there are often only 24-48 hrs off between pairings which means you can easily be stuck in SDF with insufficient time to commute back and forth, depending on where you live, thus giving up days off. If you are persistent you can trade around, drop pairings, etc., and generally improve the line, occasionally even to something really good. Ymmv. But Im not entirely sure if these lines always go junior. Ive seen reserve go to the bottom more than a few times but note that there are options (with varying degrees of success) to get a RMUL or reserve move up line. Otherwise, reserve is always in some sort of commutable block, usually a 2 week on off format. VTOs tend to trickle down as well so once you get a bit of seniority these can be a handy escape away from the base trips. Your best bet is to get your hands on a bid package...

Last edited by FTv3; 08-23-2019 at 03:44 AM. Reason: Flow
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Old 08-23-2019, 03:51 AM   #142  
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Originally Posted by FTv3 View Post
If you search posts by me (to include FTv2 and FTFF) Ive put out examples of these kinds of lines. Sorry, I dont remember when/where...
I looked for your post thinking Id use it to answer his/her question. Didnt succeed. The search function here isnt the greatest, at least not when using an iPhone..
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Old 08-23-2019, 03:57 AM   #143  
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Even reserve lines in SDF have had their patterns 'optimized'.

There are fewer Sun-Sat week on/off patterns than a year ago, and more Wed/Thurs through Tues/Wed patterns. There are also more three-block patterns that have as few as two days off in between. I generally prefer short block reserve, but the patterns are turrible of late.

Bottom folks tend to get VTOR (build-up lines that can include reserve), VTO, Reserve A (midnight-noon duty) or Base Trip Lines. Types of lines available to the bottom 5-10 pilots on SDF-based fleets tends to vary based upon fleet, domicile, and time of year.
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Old 08-23-2019, 09:55 AM   #144  
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I looked for your post thinking Id use it to answer his/her question. Didnt succeed. The search function here isnt the greatest, at least not when using an iPhone..
Yeah, its not too good and seems to stop 3 yrs back. Anyway, finally found some of it by just going back thread by thread:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/up...ht-flying.html Copy pasted into my next post below.

Also found a couple more threads with good info:

1. What bottom guys were holding in each fleet/seat/domicile circa 2017
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/up...-planning.html

2. Some general discussion:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/up...schedules.html

Still cant find post on base trip skeds...

Last edited by FTv3; 08-23-2019 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Format
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Old 08-23-2019, 10:14 AM   #145  
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Default UPS Schedule pairings

From http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/up...ht-flying.html

...Since "night flying" is a blanket term, here is what it actually is, at least at Mother Brown.

Night sort is a big percentage of our domestic flying. Similar to highspeeds, standups, or momma trips. Show up for a van pickup at the hotel around 8pm, fly a quick leg to SDF, sleep for a couple of hours (4 is over exaggerating reality), fly back to outstation (gateway in Brownspeak), get to the hotel around 6am and you are done until 8pm. Few, if any, get 8 hrs of sleep straight at the hotel. Seems most get 4-6 then take another nap before showtime. Those are the clean trips. Often you'll find multiple legs on one end, both, or some E-W or W-E long legs just to make the night brutal. And if you are late inbound your break in sdf can vanish at the blink of an eye nor does UPS bother to take care of you and let you sleep longer when they know your outbound flight is delayed. (*uodate: there is a wake up call system in place now but not sure how it works for these situations). Typical schedule is week on week off with a commercial DH on at least one side. The positioning DH starts Sunday morning or afternoon, you essentially have 24-30 hrs in the hotel before you start. You can deviate to arrive later but risk taking a 3?hr pay hit if you arrive within 18hrs of show time IF you use your CML ticket or UPS JS. Get there on your own and you can show up whenever. On the back end of the trios you usually finish early Saturday am, layover then CML DH out early evening - most people deviate straight out. Damage: disruption of normal sleep pattern, reduction in quality sleep hours, circadian disruption.

AM turns: Show up in SDF around 2-3am, fly to outstation, sleep and hour (or two if you are really lucky; some trips have no sleep opportunity) then head back to SDF. Done by 11am. Rinse and repeat for next 3 nights. Lines of turns are typically 3/4 weeks of 4 on 3 off. To emphasize, you normally get a week off out of a 4 week pay period. No perdiem is paid on these. Sounds good? Ok, a 3 am show time requires you to be at employee parking lot by 2:40 at the latest so you are probably waking up at or before 2am (this is Western Europe bankers hours). Can you be in bed asleep before 1800 to get your 8 hrs...? Sounds easy, reality is another thing. Can't tell you how many times I lay in bed from 530pm to 9 or 10 pm tossing and turning getting more and more ****ed off because all I wanted to do was feel good at 2am and that was out of the question at no fault of my own. But honestly, out of all the night stuff we fly I find these to be the most manageable. Other guys detest them. Damage: reduction of quality sleep hours, possible circadian disruption.

True night flying. All sorts of stuff and mostly on the domestic fleets. It can be multiple flights into and out of the sort with no sleep opportunities, red eyes, a link of flights around the country, etc.. The only positive is that this type of flying isn't common (all I've done is 1 red eye - *update: Ive done a bunch more) so at worst it will be sporadic. Damage: circadian disruption, circadian flip-flop, reduction of quality sleep, reduction of total sleep. This $hit will kill you. Biggest problem is that these trips are interspersed with other pairings so there's no (circadian) consistency.

International. You start going E or W. SDF is usually a 2-3am show. You can do around the worlds, loops around oceans, intl hub turns, out and backs, scatter patterns, you name it. Trip times can be anywhere from 4 days to 14. The biggest problem is the 24 hour layovers associated with E-W long haul flights. You need to get 2 x 8hr sleep opportunities in a 24 hour period when your circadian rhythm wants to do it in 36. You'll find that despite your best efforts you will show up for a long flight right at the time your body is demanding a long sleep. Needless to say, in flight rest breaks are invaluable. Otherwise it's your standard intl problems which are more circadian based vs length and quality in domestic night flying. The flying is generally easier too. Guys doing certain intl hub turns can stay on US time zones (but this goes senior). Damage: Circadian disruptions and flip flops, reduction in quality sleep.

The counter to all of this is the time off we get and the lower block hours we fly. We talk about these as being benefits but they are actually necessities. Mixed fleets like the Z and MD offer variety of pairings that you can use to recover from your exposure to the bad stuff despite the convenience the night stuff usually brings to you. Regardless, you'll notice when you get a few weeks off in a row with normal sleep just how chronically tired you are during your normal working life despite how good you are at sleep management. I'm starting to dread going to work because no matter what I do at some point during my trip I'm going to decimate my body clock and sleep cycle routine. Doing this once in a blue moon is one thing. Done chronically it will start to kill you.

As for all the questions they were drilling you on: this job is mainly about fatigue management. Your main thoughts are how to recover and be rested for the next assignment. The guys that don't are the ones who look 20 years older than they are. Like boiler said, you have to make a lifestyle change to fly night if you want to survive. It's all about survival.

Last edited by FTv3; 08-23-2019 at 10:39 AM. Reason: Added hyperlink
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Old 08-23-2019, 10:20 AM   #146  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTv3 View Post
If you search posts by me (to include FTv2 and FTFF) Ive put out examples of these kinds of lines. Sorry, I dont remember when/where. Consistent 4 on 3 off doesnt exist here unless you are looking at turns (locals, out and backs). We have week on off that can turn into 5 on 9 off if you can get the ones that go to your hometown which also have double deadheads. Otw its more like 6 on 8 off with a favorable commute scheme. There are a few lines here that go M-F, 3 out of the 4 weeks in a pay period (1 week is completely off). Turn lines are like this and generally only work 3/4 weeks.

The base trips/base lines are what you are referring to as choppy. For these you are looking at UPS owning you for some combination of 14 (up to 16)/28 days. There is no weekly consistency or any pattern, just a bunch of pairings of different lengths thrown together in various combinations. For commuters these tend to be unfavorable as there are often only 24-48 hrs off between pairings which means you can easily be stuck in SDF with insufficient time to commute back and forth, depending on where you live, thus giving up days off. If you are persistent you can trade around, drop pairings, etc., and generally improve the line, occasionally even to something really good. Ymmv. But Im not entirely sure if these lines always go junior. Ive seen reserve go to the bottom more than a few times but note that there are options (with varying degrees of success) to get a RMUL or reserve move up line. Otherwise, reserve is always in some sort of commutable block, usually a 2 week on off format. VTOs tend to trickle down as well so once you get a bit of seniority these can be a handy escape away from the base trips. Your best bet is to get your hands on a bid package...
First off, thank you for taking time to write a thorough response, base lines are what I was talking about. Having 2 on 1 off type schedules would be impossible to commute. I live in MIA so once there I don't really care what I fly, but just trying to prepare for what's ahead if I have to commute to SDF for a while.
I will take a look at the other posts.
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Old 08-23-2019, 11:17 AM   #147  
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This is all great info, thanks to all for sharing. If someone was going to JS/commute through BOS, does anyone know if you can walk from the pax terminal over to UPSs facility to JS?
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Old 08-23-2019, 11:22 AM   #148  
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This is all great info, thanks to all for sharing. If someone was going to JS/commute through BOS, does anyone know if you can walk from the pax terminal over to UPSs facility to JS?


Yes, but it can be a bit of a hike depending on what terminal you are coming from.
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Old 08-23-2019, 12:35 PM   #149  
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I just looked through various bid packs base trip lines for SDF fleets and there is just too much variety to offer any generalizations. On some lines there is stuff scattered throughout the entire 4 weeks, others have stuff grouped giving rather large blocks of time off inbetween and quite commutable while others are the same but add a single day (turn) right in the center of the block of days off to give you that kick in the nuts you always wanted. Browsing through the individual pairings of these lines is even more daunting. They really are made up of all the leftover stuff. I found a few that had every type of pairing, some that were solely modified turn lines (but mixed am and pm turns), some decent day flying on the MD, some that had 4-6 day pairings with blocks of days off on the Z, and a noticeable number of CML DHs. If you were to live in SDF none of this looked particularly bad, more on the annoying side of the house. Commuting to these, IMHO, would be a challenge but if you lived in an ideal commute city (see below), and with a little hustling to work your schedule you could price together a nice little schedule relative to what you were bid awarded.

Example: there is a 6 day block of 2 day trips back to back. Middle trip starts with a CML. Try dropping or trading 1st trip so you can start week with CML.

Example: 4 on, 2 off, 2 on, 2 off 2 on.
W-W-W-W-0-0-W-W-0-0-W-W
Drop / trade last 2 day, giving you:
W-W-W-W-0-0-W-W-0-0-0-0.

Next Insert a turn (or 2 of you need) to tighten up the block:

W-W-W-W-T-0-W-W-T-O-O-O-O-O thereby turning a 12 day sequence to 9. Not sexy but much more palatable.

If you are on the Z or MD you can try to OT trip trade a bunch of short stuff for a longer intl pairing - every now and then you will get lucky.

There has been a good amount of MIA specific discussion in these threads so youll have to dig in and find it all. I do know it aint an easy commute to/from SDF (2 legs on pax carriers) and there a lot of folks doing it.

Ideal commute cities are cities that offer nonstop flights on us as well as on the pax carriers giving you the most variety and opportunities to get back and forth. Think PHL, EWR, DFW, JFK, BWI, DC, ATL, CAE (? The old US air base in S car), DFW, ORD, DEN. Then there are the areas that have a high frequency of UPS flights (a day and a night flight and possible weekend action), like in the NE - BDL/MHT, MCO, ONT, RFD, SLC?, Im thinking also BFI/PDX, and a bunch of others... if you live in one of these towns then base trips can be manageable for commuting purposes.
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Old 08-23-2019, 01:19 PM   #150  
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Default Base trip line examples

Here is the worst example on 76Z I could find: sorry, trying to find a good format for display, no good options. Seems best if you use landscape orientation on iPhone.

Pay Period 1: 76hrs CR
3off
3.5 on (YVR EWR layovers)
5.5 off
2 day (SAT)
3 off
4 day (SAT MDT ONT)
2 off over sat and Sunday
2 day (PHL MIA)
4 day (ORD IAH)
PP2: 80 hrs CR
3 off
4.5 on (PHL BFI SHV MEM)
1.5 off
3.5 on (PHL RSW)
2.5 off
5 on (EWR ONT EWR ONT)
3 off
2 on
3 off. Note: you had every weekend off for 8 weeks.

In a different format. -#- , # here is the length of the work block. X is days off. First line is weeks 1-4 of a 56 day/8 week bid period (pay period 1/2). Second line is the second 4 weeks or PP2.

x x x 3 x x x x x x -2- x x x 4 x x -6
x x x 4 x x 3 x x x -5 x x x -2- x x x

Best Z BTL: PP1 75hr CR

2 off
4 on (PHX PVD)
10 off
4 on (ONT PHL)
3 off
5 on. *****
-PP2 76:41Hrs CR
3.5 on (SAT ORD) **** block of 8 days
1.5 off
4 on (SAN SLC)
6 off
5 on (RFD ONT MDT ATL)
4 off
4 on (YYC ORD)

Or....
x x 4 x x x x x x x x x x 4 x x x -5-
-3 x x 4 x x x x x x -5- x x x x 4

Heres an A300 example: Ill try a different format: x are days off, 1 = day 1 of new pairing. 1 2 1 2 is two, 2 day pairings back to back.

PP1
x x 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 3 4 5 x x x x x x x x x x 1 2 3 4 x
PP2
X x x x x x x x 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 3 x x x x 1 2 1 2 3 4 1 2

Or....
x x 11- x x x x x x x x x x 4 x
x x x x x x x x -8 x x x x -8

Heres a crappy MD one: || is PP break

x x x x x x 1 2 3 1 x x 1 2 3 x x x x 1 2 3 x 1 2 3 x x
x x 1 1 2 x x x x 1 x x 1 1 2 1 2 x x x x x x 1 1 2 3 1 2

One with some MD Intl: I used layover city instead of day number of pairing. SDF means you arrive that Z day (basically a day off in domicile).

x x x x x x x ONT DFW ONT X ONT SDF x x x x CGN CGN SDF x x 1 2 1 2 1 2 SJU SJU SDF
x x CGN CGN SDF x x x x x 1 2 x x x x CGN CGN SDF x x x x HNL ONT SDF ANC ANC.....

75 domestic example:

x 5 x x x 4- x x x x x x x x x 3 x x x
x x x 4 x x 1 1 x x x x x x x 9* x

* this is a 3 day followed by a 4 day then a 2 day.

Example with no big blocks off:

x x x x 4- x x 3 x x x 3 x x -5- x x
x x -2- x x x -5- x x x 5- x x x 3 x x

Hope this helps. The devil really is in the details, good or bad.

Last edited by FTv3; 08-23-2019 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Format
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