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First year pay

Old 02-16-2018, 09:46 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by G550Guy View Post
To the original post:

I came here knowing full well what lay ahead. It is what it is, and it won’t change anytime soon. I’ve mentioned before if you can’t afford the first year pay, you can’t afford the second year. I finished probation a month ago and I’m glad to report I made it just fine. I barely bought a meal the whole year, and I made closer to 60k after it was all said and done. It actually humbled me and reminded me what most America’s live off of.

This bid I’ve picked up 2 open-time trips (26 hours and 5 days) my choice, my decision. I’ve got my first kid headed to college this fall. If I did that every bid, I’d do well over 200k without even blinking. Doubtful I will do it all the time, but this time around it was a no brainer... a turn to HNL and one to ANC, easy money.




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Spot on as usual; it definitely takes some adjusting. The discussion is understandable if you own a house based on your current income and can't or don't want to sell it. We sold it all, moved in base, rented, adjusted our lifestyle, and took advantage of any income producing opportunities that presented themselves and made it through comfortably. That isn't for everyone, it took significant sacrifice (mostly on momma's part), but we are set for the rest of our lives barring something unexpected. I definitely recommend as much of a financial pad as possible.

Sacrifice is definitely required, personally I think they like it that way to ensure that you want to be here. Well worth the effort in my opinion, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.
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Old 02-16-2018, 11:45 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by 767pilot View Post
Good. Now you can pay me back and damn I'm hungry!
Hahahaha.... I KNEW you were gonna chime in!

Anytime, my treat. You gave me great advice along the way.
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Old 02-16-2018, 08:24 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by FTFFv2 View Post
Sorry, this is completely inaccurate information. Like Boiler said, most guys I talk to in the 2-3 year range are pulling in 170-180K, gross. Consistent international drivers and/or guys who worked extra pushed into the 190's factoring in late arrivals and other premiums. I heard of 1 guy breaking 200 and that included a bunch of JA (time and a half callouts) Were you counting the signing bonus $$ from April 2017? I wasn't. Factoring in B-Fund (12% defined benefit)?

12 year FO's who work the system: I talked to one senior FO and he got close to 300K but that's with a whole lot of work. 400K?...dude, most captains I talk to don't even hit that number.

You post genuine info Ray but this one was way off base.
It’s extremely rude to talk money in an open forum, especially the specifics. I feel dirty for what I’m about to do, but you called me out.

Let’s take as our example a pilot hired on 9/1/17 into the ANC 747 FO position (which is where the majority of our new hires will be going this year). On 9/1/18 FO pay will be $180.99 plus a $4.50 per hour international override. Finance/compensation gurus at the IPA say we average 82.5 hours per pay period. Half work more and half work less, but that is what the middle averages.

185.49 X 82.5=15,302.93
15,302.93 X 13=$198,938

We haven’t even gotten to late arrivals, change of layovers, or the Pacific per diem. Second year guy has 70 hours of vacation to sell if he desires, too. Most of us sell back 71.5 hours of sick time despite what you may read on the BNG to the contrary. Of course it takes making up your sick time and a few years to fill your sick bank to begin with.

Of course an A300 FO who lives in domicile and does guarantee only and doesn’t go on the road often will make less, but, again, most of our 2017 new hires will be substantially north of $200k their second year.

Math doesn’t lie.
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Old 02-16-2018, 08:31 PM
  #34  
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On top of that throw in 12% B plan and that’s another $24k. I don’t include that in compensation as it is retirement.

One reason we have so many FOs bypassing upgrade is that they can make more than $300k with good schedules. By good schedules I mean they can conflict bid and maximize pay with minimal work in many areas.

All applicants beware. First year pay sucks and you’d better have a plan to provide for yourself and family. Year two and beyond will help you recover quickly though.
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Old 02-17-2018, 06:31 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Ray Kinsella View Post
... they can make more than $300k with good schedules. By good schedules I mean they can conflict bid and maximize pay with minimal work in many areas.
Largely a game restricted to uber senior in seat. Certainly not the experience of mean. Definitely not the experience of the new. Most of us at the bottom are lucky to conflict training with a day of work, if any at all.

As for your retort, look, you can do a math example of averages and G500 can speculate on his year 2 earnings, but Boiler and I are in that demographic and are reporting our actual experiences. I was expecting 200K easily like G550 was. I fly quite a bit of international, average 80’s per PP, and get more LAP and premiums than most of my peers. Didn’t break it even factoring in the signing bonus. None of the classmates I talked to nor guys around my seniority responded that they had when I asked recently. Yeah, some guys and gals will bank some serious coin but a lot of guys never get late arrival pay and rarely see any premiums, nor do they pickup extra flying, cash back sick time (which you can’t do until what, 3 yrs anyway...?), or sell back vacay, much less conflict bid. The TA slides they put out before the C2016 vote had pay estimates for each year of the contract for each seat. IMHO, the average line pay column (middle one, not average total pay) seems pretty accurate to what most guys I’ve talked to on either seat are actually seeing for gross earnings on their final December paycheck. It is basically 1000 x hourly rate + some spare change. I’ve been a straight shooter of my experiences on these forums and this is no different. If most year 2-4 year guys are breaking 200K then there is a club I’ve not been invited too.

For the other issue at hand, I’m not one who deserves to be commenting on of the content of others’ posts but dissing new hires on a public forum aimed at new hires is in pretty bad form. Perhaps leave it for the B&G? Or maybe not as the new guys read it. Yeah, yeah, snowflake safe place BS- what about class and respect? Just sayin...
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Old 02-17-2018, 06:55 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by FTFFv2 View Post
Largely a game restricted to uber senior in seat. Certainly not the experience of mean. Definitely not the experience of the new. Most of us at the bottom are lucky to conflict training with a day of work, if any at all.

As for your retort, look, you can do a math example of averages and G500 can speculate on his year 2 earnings, but Boiler and I are in that demographic and are reporting our actual experiences. I was expecting 200K easily like G550 was. I fly quite a bit of international, average 80’s per PP, and get more LAP and premiums than most of my peers. Didn’t break it even factoring in the signing bonus. None of the classmates I talked to nor guys around my seniority responded that they had when I asked recently. Yeah, some guys and gals will bank some serious coin but a lot of guys never get late arrival pay and rarely see any premiums, nor do they pickup extra flying, cash back sick time (which you can’t do until what, 3 yrs anyway...?), or sell back vacay, much less conflict bid. The TA slides they put out before the C2016 vote had pay estimates for each year of the contract for each seat. IMHO, the average line pay column (middle one, not average total pay) seems pretty accurate to what most guys I’ve talked to on either seat are actually seeing for gross earnings on their final December paycheck. It is basically 1000 x hourly rate + some spare change. I’ve been a straight shooter of my experiences on these forums and this is no different. If most year 2-4 year guys are breaking 200K then there is a club I’ve not been invited too.

For the other issue at hand, I’m not one who deserves to be commenting on of the content of others’ posts but dissing new hires on a public forum aimed at new hires is in pretty bad form. Perhaps leave it for the B&G? Or maybe not as the new guys read it. Yeah, yeah, snowflake safe place BS- what about class and respect? Just sayin...
I don’t understand much of what you just stated.

To the point at hand. Newhires can expect well over $200k second year. Domestic only may be 185-195 but everyone else will be in the 205-215 range.

No drama, no secret bidding, it’s just simple math.
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Old 02-17-2018, 07:34 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Ray Kinsella View Post

ANC 747 FO
9/1/18 FO pay will be $180.99 plus a average 82.5 hours per pay period.

185.49 X 82.5=15,302.93
15,302.93 X 13=$198,938

70 hours of vacation to sell

a few years to fill your sick bank.

most of our 2017 new hires will be substantially north of $200k their second year.

Math doesn’t lie.
Neither does reality.

Year 2 guys starting year 2 rates Jan of 2018 are at a pay rate of $175.72. 180.99 only starts in September so your math has a noticible error in it already.

All the domestic guys and many SDF pilots wont be seeing much international override pay.

Junior guys don’t frequently get the high credit lines so 82.5 average doesn’t really apply to year 2 calculations (I usually get the 75-76 hour lines and only end up in the 80s after trading around to make the sked more commutable, usually at the unwanted sacrifice of days off). 78hrs might be more realistic average for junior peeps.

As you said yourself, sick pay outs don’t apply for a few years.

I don’t recall talking to anyone new selling their vacation back.

LAP isn’t something everyone is getting all the time. Nor are premiums.

Math doesn’t lie:

Jan - August:
$175.72 x 78 hrs = $13,706 per pp
13706 x 9 pp = $123,354

Sept - Déc
181 x 78 = 14,118 x 4 pp = $56,472

2018 gross = $179,826

Intl override: 1,014 hrs per year x $4.5/hr = $4,563 if 100% intl sked. Fine in ANC. New SDF / ONT guys aren’t holding intl lines...

Now we are at $180K to $185K.

Perdiem. 14 days x 2.50/hr (avg of domestic and intl) = $840 per pp or 11K per year. Rem: guys on call, doing turns, hots, training, etc wont get per diem for those days. ($13,104 for pure intl guys)

Now we are somewhere between $180 - 198K.

Premiums, LAP, homestudies, training on day off: no consistency but in my experience:

Home study = 2 hrs/yr?
LAP = 1x per year = 6 hrs
Premiums = 6 hrs per year
Training in day off = 2 days per year = 8 hrs
Total = 22hrs = $3,800

Bringing us to somewhere between $180 and $202. Again, 202K is for the guy doing a full international schedule which I’m pretty sure few if any new guys are. Sure ain’t going to do that based in SDF.

So, no sir. Most of our 2017 hires will not be substantially north of $200K for their second year of service...without picking up extra flying. Can’t figure out why a senior guy is telling a new guy what he will be making with complete disregard to what the new guy is reporting as his and others actual earnings.....

Last edited by FTFFv2; 02-17-2018 at 07:42 PM. Reason: Added last sentence
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Old 02-17-2018, 07:39 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Ray Kinsella View Post
I don’t understand much of what you just stated.
.
New hire reference wasn’t directed to you.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:50 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by FTFFv2 View Post
Neither does reality.

Year 2 guys starting year 2 rates Jan of 2018 are at a pay rate of $175.72. 180.99 only starts in September so your math has a noticible error in it already.

All the domestic guys and many SDF pilots wont be seeing much international override pay.

Junior guys don’t frequently get the high credit lines so 82.5 average doesn’t really apply to year 2 calculations (I usually get the 75-76 hour lines and only end up in the 80s after trading around to make the sked more commutable, usually at the unwanted sacrifice of days off). 78hrs might be more realistic average for junior peeps.

As you said yourself, sick pay outs don’t apply for a few years.

I don’t recall talking to anyone new selling their vacation back.

LAP isn’t something everyone is getting all the time. Nor are premiums.

Math doesn’t lie:

Jan - August:
$175.72 x 78 hrs = $13,706 per pp
13706 x 9 pp = $123,354

Sept - Déc
181 x 78 = 14,118 x 4 pp = $56,472

2018 gross = $179,826

Intl override: 1,014 hrs per year x $4.5/hr = $4,563 if 100% intl sked. Fine in ANC. New SDF / ONT guys aren’t holding intl lines...

Now we are at $180K to $185K.

Perdiem. 14 days x 2.50/hr (avg of domestic and intl) = $840 per pp or 11K per year. Rem: guys on call, doing turns, hots, training, etc wont get per diem for those days. ($13,104 for pure intl guys)

Now we are somewhere between $180 - 198K.

Premiums, LAP, homestudies, training on day off: no consistency but in my experience:

Home study = 2 hrs/yr?
LAP = 1x per year = 6 hrs
Premiums = 6 hrs per year
Training in day off = 2 days per year = 8 hrs
Total = 22hrs = $3,800

Bringing us to somewhere between $180 and $202. Again, 202K is for the guy doing a full international schedule which I’m pretty sure few if any new guys are. Sure ain’t going to do that based in SDF.

So, no sir. Most of our 2017 hires will not be substantially north of $200K for their second year of service...without picking up extra flying. Can’t figure out why a senior guy is telling a new guy what he will be making with complete disregard to what the new guy is reporting as his and others actual earnings.....
You are simply wrong. I’m not sure what your goal here is but it isn’t helpful. Anyone who reads my post can understand second years are going through crush $200k with premiums and per diem. If they take JA or pick up moderate open time they will really be in the 225 range.
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:12 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Ray Kinsella View Post
You are simply wrong. I’m not sure what your goal here is but it isn’t helpful. Anyone who reads my post can understand second years are going through crush $200k with premiums and per diem. If they take JA or pick up moderate open time they will really be in the 225 range.
Put whatever number you advertise and factor it for inflation and you still make a fraction what a guy made in the 60s flying similar sized equipment. So not sure what all the chest thumping is about? Why is this 200k so important? Yes it is better than making 90k flying for LaQuita but since when did 200k become some kind of special achievement?

Last edited by Harrisburg; 02-18-2018 at 12:23 AM.
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