First year pay
 

Greetings All,

How do you guys make it past the 1st year pay. UPS is a great company but until one gets on second year pay it must be difficult to get by. Does the company allow pilots to flight instruct or do contract flying on a side? I know Southwest gives their new hires a second year pay on all flights picked up on Open Time. Anything similar to that at UPS?

Wife’s job, credit card, savings. First year was far easier than the furlough.

Just got off First yr pay recently myself. Its tough but doable! Save SAve SAVe SAVE! Save as much as possible from now till the day you get the job and then some. Spouse working helps for sure but cutting as many bills as possible is easier than you think. For instance we cut cable out and stream tv for $50 less a month. Managed to get out of First year without any credit card debt while paying for a 300/mth for a crash pad. This was all done on 80k less a year than I made at previous job.
Some fleets offer the opportunity to make a little more money with the international flying as well, so that helps.
Others are more knowledgeable as far as "extra outside flying" but I believe the contract allows it as long as it doesnt effect your rest, or duty days...

It’s sad, but we actually qualified for government assistance due to the fact that my pay was so low for the size of my family. It was a tough year, but doable if you cut your spending. Cashing out of my sick pay at my former airline helped as well.

Most of the outside flying is part 91 and that doesn't count towards Part 117. Good thing you have it in your contract. That would be a significant help. Much better than driving Uber or work at Home Depot,although if needed I'd do both.

First year pay is what UPS thinks a pilot is worth.

Second and beyond is what our union is worth.

;)

I’m pretty sure 117 doesn’t apply to cargo operators.

If you cannot find a way to make it through one year of $50k to more than about $200k second year and beyond, you might be in trouble.

I’m almost through first year pay here. It hasn’t been hard at all. I pay my cc off every month, have no car payments, no student loans, $325 crashpad, and a mortgage payment.
You need to come into this job well prepared financially. Now if you have kids or a wife that doesn’t work then it may be hard. But in reality isn’t $45k the avg income in America?
My first year at my regional only making $23k year with piles of debt was ROUGH.....

Thanks for the info Gentlemen! How doable is $200K second year? Is that with International flying or can be done on domestic routes?

First year pay
 

IMO

$200k gross income isn’t “easy” on second year pay. Perhaps if you include international override and perdiem, and get some late arrival pay and premiums you cam get there...definitely can get there if you include the 12% DC for a total compensation figure.

Then again, maybe I’m underachieving [emoji857]

Most 2017 hires will make more than $200k without trying. There are 12 year FOs pushing $400k.

UPS will ask in the interview, “ What have you done to prepare for first year pay?”

Better have an answer formulated, or you may not look very interested.

Second year base pay this year of the CBA is $171,327.00

That’s only counting the 13 pay periods of 75 hours and nothing else.

Sorry, this is completely inaccurate information. Like Boiler said, most guys I talk to in the 2-3 year range are pulling in 170-180K, gross. Consistent international drivers and/or guys who worked extra pushed into the 190's factoring in late arrivals and other premiums. I heard of 1 guy breaking 200 and that included a bunch of JA (time and a half callouts) Were you counting the signing bonus $$ from April 2017? I wasn't. Factoring in B-Fund (12% defined benefit)?

12 year FO's who work the system: I talked to one senior FO and he got close to 300K but that's with a whole lot of work. 400K?...dude, most captains I talk to don't even hit that number.

You post genuine info Ray but this one was way off base.

To the OP,

With UPS you either deal with year 1 pay or go elsewhere. If you take the brown pill it becomes a simple matter of managing money output vs. money supply. If $45K exceeds your total income then your best bet is to cut all non essential costs for a year and then try to take an interest free loan from family or friends to cover the remainder. If not, can you get a good deal on an equity line of credit or something with low rates and fees? Flying extra is hit or miss at UPS and not really worth it for the RJ rates they pay year 1. If your spouse can work even a part time gig that would help out immensely. I heard of an odd guy or two doing a side gig: one uber driver, another bartended, while a bunch did/do the ANG thing. Where there is a will there is a way... There is advice out there to take a loan out year 1 to max out your 401K ( search the B&G if on property and interested-it is something I wish I would have done).

It’s hard to fathom this discussion.

At the risk of sounding like my depression era father:

-starting pay was 26k until two contracts ago
-most of us didn’t break 100k until year 5
-came here with wife and daughter
-making 200k your second year is highly probable

I’ve noticed, and so has the company with more than a few fired first year for entitlement issues, new hires with a different view point of what it is to be on probation. It’s been a noticeable shift in attitude.

We were talking about this on the js a couple weeks ago.
3 yr domestic 75 FO made $205k last year not picking up any JA.
12 yr 74 FO made $340k last year but he worked the system, picked up JA ect...
And BTW a lot of the captains that i speak to are over $400k.

As far as I know, no outside commercial flying and certainly not because of 117. It's not in the contract or the Far's, just FOM policy. I know at least one guy justifying part 91 corporate flying on his off time by saying it's not commercial

The entitlement attitude among some of the first years guys did come up on my training center visit. No one cares that your last place had better equipment or how they did things. You're here now. Learn how they want you to do the job. They're starting to get picky about attitude as a few recent first year firings has proven.

It's the f..kin snowflakes me me me attitude you're seeing. Way different than 20 yrs ago.

I don't think it's generational. The average age of new hires isn't very different than the age of most of us.

We're hiring far fewer of the 20 and 30 somethings we used to get. People who have made more financial and family commitments and have trouble finding flexibility with them. They are taking large pay cuts versus what was a raise for many of us.

Brown is looking for highly qualified people but not willing to pay the first year pay if takes to keep some of them smiling. There's going to be conflict.

Personally I'd like to see them go back to hiring guys a little less qualified but perhaps a little more trainable and adaptable to our system.

Not that the guys I have come across haven't been great, but there's lots of great people that haven't been left seat of an international heavy that would fit in just as well or better. The stories from school house and ioe instructors are enlightening.

I've read the "second year at $200k" numerous times, but never seen anybody show their math.

Are we talking "Total Gross Earnings" on the earning statement which includes perdiem, premiums, LAP, JAs, etc. or "Total Compensation" which also includes the 12% DC?

As a 3/4 year FO, I credited more than 1100 hours last year (including credit from premiums, LAP, JA) but made fairly little perdiem (only 13 hotel stays in 2017), and broke $200k in TGE only due to the second half of the signing bonus.

Like I said upthread, perhaps I'm under-achieving :D

Sorry, you are not going to make 200k your second year, but the pay bump will be very nice probably in the 150-180 range.

So pre-9/11 quals? A lot of the people hired in the 90s wouldn't meet the mins to apply during the last 14 years of hiring.

No, and that includes me. We hired a nice spectrum of people in the first decade of this century. I think that the key to our hiring has always been a nice diversity of background and experience. We're locking a lot of good sub 5000 hour people out including many in the service. Delta and united are welcoming them.

Second year pay 1 Sept 2018 is $180.99. At 75 hour guarantee that is $176,465 gross.

To the original post:

I came here knowing full well what lay ahead. It is what it is, and it won’t change anytime soon. I’ve mentioned before if you can’t afford the first year pay, you can’t afford the second year. I finished probation a month ago and I’m glad to report I made it just fine. I barely bought a meal the whole year, and I made closer to 60k after it was all said and done. It actually humbled me and reminded me what most America’s live off of.

This bid I’ve picked up 2 open-time trips (26 hours and 5 days) my choice, my decision. I’ve got my first kid headed to college this fall. If I did that every bid, I’d do well over 200k without even blinking. Doubtful I will do it all the time, but this time around it was a no brainer... a turn to HNL and one to ANC, easy money.




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Good. Now you can pay me back and damn I'm hungry!

Guess I was pretty close!:D

In the ballpark for sure.

Spot on as usual; it definitely takes some adjusting. The discussion is understandable if you own a house based on your current income and can't or don't want to sell it. We sold it all, moved in base, rented, adjusted our lifestyle, and took advantage of any income producing opportunities that presented themselves and made it through comfortably. That isn't for everyone, it took significant sacrifice (mostly on momma's part), but we are set for the rest of our lives barring something unexpected. I definitely recommend as much of a financial pad as possible.

Sacrifice is definitely required, personally I think they like it that way to ensure that you want to be here. Well worth the effort in my opinion, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

Hahahaha.... I KNEW you were gonna chime in!

Anytime, my treat. You gave me great advice along the way.

It’s extremely rude to talk money in an open forum, especially the specifics. I feel dirty for what I’m about to do, but you called me out.

Let’s take as our example a pilot hired on 9/1/17 into the ANC 747 FO position (which is where the majority of our new hires will be going this year). On 9/1/18 FO pay will be $180.99 plus a $4.50 per hour international override. Finance/compensation gurus at the IPA say we average 82.5 hours per pay period. Half work more and half work less, but that is what the middle averages.

185.49 X 82.5=15,302.93
15,302.93 X 13=$198,938

We haven’t even gotten to late arrivals, change of layovers, or the Pacific per diem. Second year guy has 70 hours of vacation to sell if he desires, too. Most of us sell back 71.5 hours of sick time despite what you may read on the BNG to the contrary. Of course it takes making up your sick time and a few years to fill your sick bank to begin with.

Of course an A300 FO who lives in domicile and does guarantee only and doesn’t go on the road often will make less, but, again, most of our 2017 new hires will be substantially north of $200k their second year.

Math doesn’t lie.

On top of that throw in 12% B plan and that’s another $24k. I don’t include that in compensation as it is retirement.

One reason we have so many FOs bypassing upgrade is that they can make more than $300k with good schedules. By good schedules I mean they can conflict bid and maximize pay with minimal work in many areas.

All applicants beware. First year pay sucks and you’d better have a plan to provide for yourself and family. Year two and beyond will help you recover quickly though.

Largely a game restricted to uber senior in seat. Certainly not the experience of mean. Definitely not the experience of the new. Most of us at the bottom are lucky to conflict training with a day of work, if any at all.

As for your retort, look, you can do a math example of averages and G500 can speculate on his year 2 earnings, but Boiler and I are in that demographic and are reporting our actual experiences. I was expecting 200K easily like G550 was. I fly quite a bit of international, average 80’s per PP, and get more LAP and premiums than most of my peers. Didn’t break it even factoring in the signing bonus. None of the classmates I talked to nor guys around my seniority responded that they had when I asked recently. Yeah, some guys and gals will bank some serious coin but a lot of guys never get late arrival pay and rarely see any premiums, nor do they pickup extra flying, cash back sick time (which you can’t do until what, 3 yrs anyway...?), or sell back vacay, much less conflict bid. The TA slides they put out before the C2016 vote had pay estimates for each year of the contract for each seat. IMHO, the average line pay column (middle one, not average total pay) seems pretty accurate to what most guys I’ve talked to on either seat are actually seeing for gross earnings on their final December paycheck. It is basically 1000 x hourly rate + some spare change. I’ve been a straight shooter of my experiences on these forums and this is no different. If most year 2-4 year guys are breaking 200K then there is a club I’ve not been invited too.

For the other issue at hand, I’m not one who deserves to be commenting on of the content of others’ posts but dissing new hires on a public forum aimed at new hires is in pretty bad form. Perhaps leave it for the B&G? Or maybe not as the new guys read it. Yeah, yeah, snowflake safe place BS- what about class and respect? Just sayin...

I don’t understand much of what you just stated.

To the point at hand. Newhires can expect well over $200k second year. Domestic only may be 185-195 but everyone else will be in the 205-215 range.

No drama, no secret bidding, it’s just simple math.

Neither does reality.

Year 2 guys starting year 2 rates Jan of 2018 are at a pay rate of $175.72. 180.99 only starts in September so your math has a noticible error in it already.

All the domestic guys and many SDF pilots wont be seeing much international override pay.

Junior guys don’t frequently get the high credit lines so 82.5 average doesn’t really apply to year 2 calculations (I usually get the 75-76 hour lines and only end up in the 80s after trading around to make the sked more commutable, usually at the unwanted sacrifice of days off). 78hrs might be more realistic average for junior peeps.

As you said yourself, sick pay outs don’t apply for a few years.

I don’t recall talking to anyone new selling their vacation back.

LAP isn’t something everyone is getting all the time. Nor are premiums.

Math doesn’t lie:

Jan - August:
$175.72 x 78 hrs = $13,706 per pp
13706 x 9 pp = $123,354

Sept - Déc
181 x 78 = 14,118 x 4 pp = $56,472

2018 gross = $179,826

Intl override: 1,014 hrs per year x $4.5/hr = $4,563 if 100% intl sked. Fine in ANC. New SDF / ONT guys aren’t holding intl lines...

Now we are at $180K to $185K.

Perdiem. 14 days x 2.50/hr (avg of domestic and intl) = $840 per pp or 11K per year. Rem: guys on call, doing turns, hots, training, etc wont get per diem for those days. ($13,104 for pure intl guys)

Now we are somewhere between $180 - 198K.

Premiums, LAP, homestudies, training on day off: no consistency but in my experience:

Home study = 2 hrs/yr?
LAP = 1x per year = 6 hrs
Premiums = 6 hrs per year
Training in day off = 2 days per year = 8 hrs
Total = 22hrs = $3,800

Bringing us to somewhere between $180 and $202. Again, 202K is for the guy doing a full international schedule which I’m pretty sure few if any new guys are. Sure ain’t going to do that based in SDF.

So, no sir. Most of our 2017 hires will not be substantially north of $200K for their second year of service...without picking up extra flying. Can’t figure out why a senior guy is telling a new guy what he will be making with complete disregard to what the new guy is reporting as his and others actual earnings.....

New hire reference wasn’t directed to you.

You are simply wrong. I’m not sure what your goal here is but it isn’t helpful. Anyone who reads my post can understand second years are going through crush $200k with premiums and per diem. If they take JA or pick up moderate open time they will really be in the 225 range.

Put whatever number you advertise and factor it for inflation and you still make a fraction what a guy made in the 60s flying similar sized equipment. So not sure what all the chest thumping is about? Why is this 200k so important? Yes it is better than making 90k flying for LaQuita but since when did 200k become some kind of special achievement?