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Old 06-19-2019, 06:22 AM   #11  
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There is a very senior B6 CA who was at UPS. I don't recall his name. He was 2001 B6 hire. He may have some insight.
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Old 06-19-2019, 07:27 AM   #12  
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Originally Posted by BrownDoubles View Post
A plan, B plan, OCV (vacation)... the advantages of UPS go well beyond top end CA pay.
Agreed. Retirement and vacation at UPS are truly industry leading. Iíd love to have an A plan funded by a strong company like Brown to help mitigate market fluctuations. That being said Iíve got almost 40 years left until 65 if I am lucky enough to stay healthy so the 15% (soon to be 16% in Jan.) DC at JB should in theory be worth several million by retirement if I am being incredibly half glass full and likely unrealstic about how smooth my career will be. The UPS 12% DC does the trick too with the A plan adding diversity and icing on the cake if itís still in place in 4 decades, therefore being the superior retirement package. If I was the average UPS new hireís age, which correct me if Iím wrong is around mid-40ís? The A-plan would no doubt be a huge factor to bail on B6 over UPS if you had 20 years or less to fly part 121.

WRT OPís question about leaving JB between years 1-3. First year Iíd say it makes sense to bail from whoever to wherever you want. Year 3 on the other hand is trickier. If a B6 Pilot 3 years on property got the call from UPS to leave today they would be walking away from either being an A320 FO with some decent seniority making $150/hr to go make $46/hr but after 12 months $180/hr at Brown. Iíd say youíd catch back up at Brown pretty darn quick unless that B6 pilot chose to stay and upgrade either on to the 190 or the 320 in a couple more years(190 upgrade around 2 years 2 months) thatís walking away from $200/hour on the 190 after 2ish years on property. After 3 more years at JB they could mostly like be a very junior 320 captain at $258/hr after 6 years versus leaving JB at year 3 then flying at Brown for 3 more years and being at $190ish/hr at Brown. Over the length of a career at Brown I think youíd make the difference up from leaving JB at year 3 eventually just depends if you want to sacrifice the short term for the long term. I think a lot of 3 year JB pilots intertested in playing the long game would choose UPS but maybe not a no brainier like it used to be once you are on property for 3 years.

Iím sure Iím over simplifying things but these are just my thoughts on the matter.

Last edited by SaturnV; 06-19-2019 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:41 AM   #13  
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Keep in mind that once you make captain at UPS you no longer have a 12% DC B plan more like 8 or 9 since it stops at the federal limits. Also, the very nice A plan has to be renegotiated every contract (flat dollar amount) which means we are paying for it, buying it back from the company one way or another each contract cycle.

Maybe you can get a job on their airshow demo squad?

Just some things to consider.
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Old 06-19-2019, 12:46 PM   #14  
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Keep in mind that once you make captain at UPS you no longer have a 12% DC B plan more like 8 or 9 since it stops at the federal limits. Also, the very nice A plan has to be renegotiated every contract (flat dollar amount) which means we are paying for it, buying it back from the company one way or another each contract cycle.

Maybe you can get a job on their airshow demo squad?

Just some things to consider.
Sign me up for the air show demo squad but only if itís as an IPA pilot. Iím too low time to get a job at Brown though. I graduated from the University of Louisville, worked for them for several years at worldport, have over 1000TPIC Part121 but recruitment kept telling to go to Atlas for awhile and maybe theyíd call. Things are still really competitive and I realize my quals are not even remotely close to how much experience and time the average new hire gets hired with but I also wanted to get to a place I could be happy to hang my hat ASAP and not make another pit stop at an ACMI. Most of my friends have gone to FedEX and the other major pax carriers from the left seat of where I was at so I decided to just try to jump straight from there. Worked out for me at B6 and am really enjoying it so far.

Didnít realize UPS doesnít have cash over cap for the high earners. Thatís a bummer but Iím sure the blow is softened by having the A plan to look forward to.

Last edited by SaturnV; 06-19-2019 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 06-19-2019, 01:34 PM   #15  
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Yes, the a plan is great to look forward to depending on what year you were born, there's more or less to be excited about. If you were born before or after a certain year (you can tell I was born after because I don't know what it was) you will get 40,000 less a year than the rest unless the company agrees to more in negotiations. This as the managers or team (of we have one) sit across the table from managers that have had theirs frozen.
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Old 06-20-2019, 08:31 AM   #16  
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Also, the very nice A plan has to be renegotiated every contract (flat dollar amount) which means we are paying for it, buying it back from the company one way or another each contract cycle.
Not exactly. The A Plan (Defined Benefit Plan) DOES have a contractual end date, but is not "renegotiated" each contract.

A terminating date for this pension plan is required, otherwise the company would have to fund the plan for the entire pilot groups estimated actuarial longevity. That would be a pretty big chunk of loose change (100s of millions?).

Instead, an end date is established and the continuation of the flat dollar benefit past the amendable date is covered in the "Letter of Agreement ĖExtending Pension Flat Dollar Formula Beyond Amendable Date" LOA found in the back of the contract. Here's the boiler plate language. I'd recommend reading the entire LOA instead of this boring snippet:

If a successor labor agreement is not ratified on or before December 31, 2023, the Company agrees to amend the plan by January 31, 2024, effective January 1, 2024, to provide that crewmembers that will attain age sixty (60) prior to December 31, 2026 may retire on or after attaining early retirement age and immediately commence drawing a benefit based on the better of the final average earnings formula or the applicable flat dollar formula. Such amendment also will provide that to the extent a crewmember covered under this provision began drawing a benefit prior to January 1, 2024,

(1) his benefit shall be recalculated, and
(2) no later than March 1, 2024, the plan will pay the crewmember a lump sum amount (subject to spousal consent as applicable) which is the difference between
i. the total amount that he would have received if his benefit payments had been paid based on the better of the final average earnings formula or the applicable flat dollar formula, and
ii. the total payments that he actually received, and
(3) no later than March 1, 2024, the plan will also pay the crewmember interest on the amount paid under paragraph (b)(2) above, at a rate of 7% per year, compounded annually.
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Old 06-20-2019, 08:51 AM   #17  
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Nobody much seemed to care that FDA had to be renegotiated in 2016 in accordance with IRS/ERISA, lest defined benefit revert to 1% FAE...why do people seem to care now?

None of this is new...

A glance at our demographics and looming retirement wave should cement the reality that renegotiating FDA will be a top priority in upcoming negotiations.
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Old 06-21-2019, 07:11 AM   #18  
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No, people care very much but at that point, and the end of all other contracts, 1% equaled the flat dollar amount. Now it lags by 40,000 a year at the end making the flat dollar rate much more important than it was. Could have been fixed with 1.25% but couldn't sell the company on that one.
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Old 06-21-2019, 07:14 AM   #19  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fr8rcaptain View Post
Not exactly. The A Plan (Defined Benefit Plan) DOES have a contractual end date, but is not "renegotiated" each contract.

A terminating date for this pension plan is required, otherwise the company would have to fund the plan for the entire pilot groups estimated actuarial longevity. That would be a pretty big chunk of loose change (100s of millions?).

Instead, an end date is established and the continuation of the flat dollar benefit past the amendable date is covered in the "Letter of Agreement ĖExtending Pension Flat Dollar Formula Beyond Amendable Date" LOA found in the back of the contract. Here's the boiler plate language. I'd recommend reading the entire LOA instead of this boring snippet:

If a successor labor agreement is not ratified on or before December 31, 2023, the Company agrees to amend the plan by January 31, 2024, effective January 1, 2024, to provide that crewmembers that will attain age sixty (60) prior to December 31, 2026 may retire on or after attaining early retirement age and immediately commence drawing a benefit based on the better of the final average earnings formula or the applicable flat dollar formula. Such amendment also will provide that to the extent a crewmember covered under this provision began drawing a benefit prior to January 1, 2024,

(1) his benefit shall be recalculated, and
(2) no later than March 1, 2024, the plan will pay the crewmember a lump sum amount (subject to spousal consent as applicable) which is the difference between
i. the total amount that he would have received if his benefit payments had been paid based on the better of the final average earnings formula or the applicable flat dollar formula, and
ii. the total payments that he actually received, and
(3) no later than March 1, 2024, the plan will also pay the crewmember interest on the amount paid under paragraph (b)(2) above, at a rate of 7% per year, compounded annually.

We could leave the table next time with a flat dollar or no flat dollar. Sounds like negotiating it's future continuation to me.
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:18 PM   #20  
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Originally Posted by 767pilot View Post
We could leave the table next time with a flat dollar or no flat dollar. Sounds like negotiating it's future continuation to me.
Wont ratify without continuation and better.
UPS knows the demographics. They hired folks old enough to ensure a continuation.
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