History of UPS furloughs and future debate...
04-21-2020, 01:01 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,339
Originally Posted by FTv3
...
...Of the 300 furlough letters sent out, UPS sent 109 off the property anyway. I though they brought a few back rather quickly; yet some were still returning as late as 2015. Interesting to note, almost everybody came back: 1 guy bailed to management, another 2(?) passed away but everyone else is back on the line - there is a union document which tracked the status of the 109 but I can’t seem to find it again. Anyway, would be great for someone to post a detailed summary.
...Of the 300 furlough letters sent out, UPS sent 109 off the property anyway. I though they brought a few back rather quickly; yet some were still returning as late as 2015. Interesting to note, almost everybody came back: 1 guy bailed to management, another 2(?) passed away but everyone else is back on the line - there is a union document which tracked the status of the 109 but I can’t seem to find it again. Anyway, would be great for someone to post a detailed summary.
109 furloughed, 1 crossed over early on into the furloughs and 1 crossed over at the end of the furlough (by then all of them had received recall notices). I believe at least 2, maybe 3 never came back because they ended up at Fedex?
Of the 2 who passed away, 1 committed suicide early on into his furlough and 1 died of stomach cancer a year or so after being recalled. Those are the only deaths I know of.
04-21-2020, 01:47 PM
#13
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2019
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by FTv3
Edit: thanks for that summary!!!
If this pandemic has taught us anything it is to remember to expect the unexpected. We are in unchartered waters without much of a paddle or a map. Everyone seems to opine (myself included) this is just a bump in the road and expecting a v shaped or f(x)=x^2 type of recovery. Equally likely to be more f(x)=sqrt(x)....
Here’s some pessimistic ideas to further consider:
I would say we probably got some time before RIF could become an issue. Too many unknown variables to predict safely in either direction IMHO. Seems like many peeps aren’t too worried about it which is why I started this thread.
If this pandemic has taught us anything it is to remember to expect the unexpected. We are in unchartered waters without much of a paddle or a map. Everyone seems to opine (myself included) this is just a bump in the road and expecting a v shaped or f(x)=x^2 type of recovery. Equally likely to be more f(x)=sqrt(x)....
Here’s some pessimistic ideas to further consider:
- The second wave’s arrival and its effect,
- Amazon could seize the opportunity to finally take over the shipping industry. (edit #2 added article link) https://www.barrons.com/articles/ama...ps-51587403739
- huge political instability caused by deep, deep division in this country could very easily crack open in November - we could all find ourselves in a real bad mess by year’s end.
- New CEO resuming the Davis doctrine strategy
- Aircraft orders can be deferred or cancelled,
- Airlines hire until they furlough.
I would say we probably got some time before RIF could become an issue. Too many unknown variables to predict safely in either direction IMHO. Seems like many peeps aren’t too worried about it which is why I started this thread.
the guy writing that barrons article just needed to make quota and write an article. amazon just shut down their third party shipping it wasn't going so well. from the few small details I can find about it, they were always late with pickup and delivery and often lost packages. they also were pretty much on par with UPS/FDX pricing. Once again an investor writes and article to bump up AMZ stock price.
04-21-2020, 02:11 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 1,256
Originally Posted by JHForman
the guy writing that barrons article just needed to make quota and write an article. amazon just shut down their third party shipping it wasn't going so well. from the few small details I can find about it, they were always late with pickup and delivery and often lost packages. they also were pretty much on par with UPS/FDX pricing. Once again an investor writes and article to bump up AMZ stock price.
04-21-2020, 02:52 PM
#15
Tri-tanic operator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Doggie
Posts: 2,382
Originally Posted by FIT59
Corrections from my memory, having received a furlough letter, but was fortunate to not get furloughed.
December 13, 2007, age 65 law changes; over 60 FE's begin bidding ANC 747 vacancies to get their seat back, beginning a bump (and eventual flush). May 2008, after a failed bid to take over the domestic flying for DHL, UPS announces the parking of all remaining DC-8's (approximately 45 airframes). Shortly after, UPS tells the union that 300 pilots will need to be furloughed. After discussions between the IPA and UPS, a target amount of financial savings is negotiated to prevent furloughs (a goal post created). The VJPP MOU was created with many different methods to reach the above mentioned goal post of savings. These included reduced guarantee lines, job sharing lines, leaves of absence, and sick bank give backs. Nearly all IPA crew members contributed to this MOU and just as the goal was met, the company instructed the union to give more, moving the goal posts further. There simply was no more to give and the company broke their word and sent out 170 furlough letters. A few weeks later, they sent out an additional 10 letters, totaling 180. Of that, 109 were furloughed. After the Flight 6 tragedy, UPS stopped furloughing. Perhaps they no longer needed to furlough, or perhaps they grew a conscience. The company was wildly profitable over this period of time, and they certainly could have absorbed the 109, but chose a different path. By the way, many of those furloughed had received a one way move package to the ANC domicile, and were stranded up there, unemployed. It was a difficult time, and it lasted what seemed like forever. The IPA had our brothers and sisters back; I heard we only had 18 crew members violate the no open time ban during the furlough (something that is written into our CBA).
December 13, 2007, age 65 law changes; over 60 FE's begin bidding ANC 747 vacancies to get their seat back, beginning a bump (and eventual flush). May 2008, after a failed bid to take over the domestic flying for DHL, UPS announces the parking of all remaining DC-8's (approximately 45 airframes). Shortly after, UPS tells the union that 300 pilots will need to be furloughed. After discussions between the IPA and UPS, a target amount of financial savings is negotiated to prevent furloughs (a goal post created). The VJPP MOU was created with many different methods to reach the above mentioned goal post of savings. These included reduced guarantee lines, job sharing lines, leaves of absence, and sick bank give backs. Nearly all IPA crew members contributed to this MOU and just as the goal was met, the company instructed the union to give more, moving the goal posts further. There simply was no more to give and the company broke their word and sent out 170 furlough letters. A few weeks later, they sent out an additional 10 letters, totaling 180. Of that, 109 were furloughed. After the Flight 6 tragedy, UPS stopped furloughing. Perhaps they no longer needed to furlough, or perhaps they grew a conscience. The company was wildly profitable over this period of time, and they certainly could have absorbed the 109, but chose a different path. By the way, many of those furloughed had received a one way move package to the ANC domicile, and were stranded up there, unemployed. It was a difficult time, and it lasted what seemed like forever. The IPA had our brothers and sisters back; I heard we only had 18 crew members violate the no open time ban during the furlough (something that is written into our CBA).
I received the furlough letter, but was not actually furloughed. It was a broad letter with a projected furlough of January. It was sent months in advance to loosely comply with the contractual 90 day notification requirement. They seem to have underestimated how much training the displacements would require, so they were constantly adjusting their manpower predictions. Maybe it was the reduction in open time being picked up ? I seem to remember that by July or August, they had begun to postpone furloughs on a pay period to pay period basis. Literally, folks thought they were leaving (possibly lined up another employer) and with less than 4 weeks UPS would say they still need them for another 4 weeks. This delay & postponement went on a few pay periods until they finally announced the furlough was over. Flight #6 definitely played a role, how much is debatable. Could UPS grow a conscience ? Could they be shamed into doing the right thing and stopping the furlough ?
During the years between furlough/recall and hiring, UPS would micromanage system bids. Constantly moving 5 bodies from one fleet, a few upgrades here, a few downgrades there ... a constant churn of training events for those bottom 10% in both seats. Many of us have seen all fleets and all domiciles due to those years of displacements and reductions. Hopefully it will not return ...
Last edited by CactusCrew; 04-21-2020 at 03:06 PM.
04-21-2020, 04:56 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by FIT59
Corrections from my memory, having received a furlough letter, but was fortunate to not get furloughed.
December 13, 2007, age 65 law changes; over 60 FE's begin bidding ANC 747 vacancies to get their seat back, beginning a bump (and eventual flush). May 2008, after a failed bid to take over the domestic flying for DHL, UPS announces the parking of all remaining DC-8's (approximately 45 airframes). Shortly after, UPS tells the union that 300 pilots will need to be furloughed. After discussions between the IPA and UPS, a target amount of financial savings is negotiated to prevent furloughs (a goal post created). The VJPP MOU was created with many different methods to reach the above mentioned goal post of savings. These included reduced guarantee lines, job sharing lines, leaves of absence, and sick bank give backs. Nearly all IPA crew members contributed to this MOU and just as the goal was met, the company instructed the union to give more, moving the goal posts further. There simply was no more to give and the company broke their word and sent out 170 furlough letters. A few weeks later, they sent out an additional 10 letters, totaling 180. Of that, 109 were furloughed. After the Flight 6 tragedy, UPS stopped furloughing. Perhaps they no longer needed to furlough, or perhaps they grew a conscience. The company was wildly profitable over this period of time, and they certainly could have absorbed the 109, but chose a different path. By the way, many of those furloughed had received a one way move package to the ANC domicile, and were stranded up there, unemployed. It was a difficult time, and it lasted what seemed like forever. The IPA had our brothers and sisters back; I heard we only had 18 crew members violate the no open time ban during the furlough (something that is written into our CBA).
December 13, 2007, age 65 law changes; over 60 FE's begin bidding ANC 747 vacancies to get their seat back, beginning a bump (and eventual flush). May 2008, after a failed bid to take over the domestic flying for DHL, UPS announces the parking of all remaining DC-8's (approximately 45 airframes). Shortly after, UPS tells the union that 300 pilots will need to be furloughed. After discussions between the IPA and UPS, a target amount of financial savings is negotiated to prevent furloughs (a goal post created). The VJPP MOU was created with many different methods to reach the above mentioned goal post of savings. These included reduced guarantee lines, job sharing lines, leaves of absence, and sick bank give backs. Nearly all IPA crew members contributed to this MOU and just as the goal was met, the company instructed the union to give more, moving the goal posts further. There simply was no more to give and the company broke their word and sent out 170 furlough letters. A few weeks later, they sent out an additional 10 letters, totaling 180. Of that, 109 were furloughed. After the Flight 6 tragedy, UPS stopped furloughing. Perhaps they no longer needed to furlough, or perhaps they grew a conscience. The company was wildly profitable over this period of time, and they certainly could have absorbed the 109, but chose a different path. By the way, many of those furloughed had received a one way move package to the ANC domicile, and were stranded up there, unemployed. It was a difficult time, and it lasted what seemed like forever. The IPA had our brothers and sisters back; I heard we only had 18 crew members violate the no open time ban during the furlough (something that is written into our CBA).
04-22-2020, 08:52 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: A300 Capt.
Posts: 296
Originally Posted by 31wins
We never met the goal, go back and read all the comms from the union. Didn't meet the money the second time either. Just needed to correct the record.
04-22-2020, 05:31 PM
#18
The Beach
Joined APC: Apr 2020
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
UPS never actually furloughed post-9/11.
Originally Posted by FIT59
Corrections from my memory, having received a furlough letter, but was fortunate to not get furloughed.
December 13, 2007, age 65 law changes; over 60 FE's begin bidding ANC 747 vacancies to get their seat back, beginning a bump (and eventual flush). May 2008, after a failed bid to take over the domestic flying for DHL, UPS announces the parking of all remaining DC-8's (approximately 45 airframes). Shortly after, UPS tells the union that 300 pilots will need to be furloughed. After discussions between the IPA and UPS, a target amount of financial savings is negotiated to prevent furloughs (a goal post created). The VJPP MOU was created with many different methods to reach the above mentioned goal post of savings. These included reduced guarantee lines, job sharing lines, leaves of absence, and sick bank give backs. Nearly all IPA crew members contributed to this MOU and just as the goal was met, the company instructed the union to give more, moving the goal posts further. There simply was no more to give and the company broke their word and sent out 170 furlough letters. A few weeks later, they sent out an additional 10 letters, totaling 180. Of that, 109 were furloughed. After the Flight 6 tragedy, UPS stopped furloughing. Perhaps they no longer needed to furlough, or perhaps they grew a conscience. The company was wildly profitable over this period of time, and they certainly could have absorbed the 109, but chose a different path. By the way, many of those furloughed had received a one way move package to the ANC domicile, and were stranded up there, unemployed. It was a difficult time, and it lasted what seemed like forever. The IPA had our brothers and sisters back; I heard we only had 18 crew members violate the no open time ban during the furlough (something that is written into our CBA).
December 13, 2007, age 65 law changes; over 60 FE's begin bidding ANC 747 vacancies to get their seat back, beginning a bump (and eventual flush). May 2008, after a failed bid to take over the domestic flying for DHL, UPS announces the parking of all remaining DC-8's (approximately 45 airframes). Shortly after, UPS tells the union that 300 pilots will need to be furloughed. After discussions between the IPA and UPS, a target amount of financial savings is negotiated to prevent furloughs (a goal post created). The VJPP MOU was created with many different methods to reach the above mentioned goal post of savings. These included reduced guarantee lines, job sharing lines, leaves of absence, and sick bank give backs. Nearly all IPA crew members contributed to this MOU and just as the goal was met, the company instructed the union to give more, moving the goal posts further. There simply was no more to give and the company broke their word and sent out 170 furlough letters. A few weeks later, they sent out an additional 10 letters, totaling 180. Of that, 109 were furloughed. After the Flight 6 tragedy, UPS stopped furloughing. Perhaps they no longer needed to furlough, or perhaps they grew a conscience. The company was wildly profitable over this period of time, and they certainly could have absorbed the 109, but chose a different path. By the way, many of those furloughed had received a one way move package to the ANC domicile, and were stranded up there, unemployed. It was a difficult time, and it lasted what seemed like forever. The IPA had our brothers and sisters back; I heard we only had 18 crew members violate the no open time ban during the furlough (something that is written into our CBA).
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