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Leaving SWA at 6yrs for UPS?

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Leaving SWA at 6yrs for UPS?

Old 05-14-2022, 11:36 AM
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Default Leaving SWA at 6yrs for UPS?

Looking for some sound and unbiased views and commentary on anyone who has left recently the commercial airlines for cargo, specifically UPS? Money is good and I am home 18-20 days a month, but the schedules and operations are getting worse, and post-Covid manning our operations make us even harder to work for. Lately our operation meltdowns, I feel like I am on the Titanic and the orchestra is playing top deck and the ship is listing over. Is SWA the next Eastern Airlines?? I am not sure, but things have not been well since the MAX and Covid....very reactionary management. I am sure I work harder than any other NB 737 Pilot in America! I get it. But my reasons to come to SWA and life have changed recently. It is no longer the best long-term career for us because it will dictate a move in the next 5-10yrs to a favorable domicile. Overnights are now consistently short. AMs trips are turning into PMs and PMs are turning into AMs. I know I work harder at SWA than I would at UPS, but has it been a "why didn't I leave earlier" once you did UPS vs airlines? I am a couple years from upgrade (to West Coast Captain while positioned in East Coast Base) and have over 16 years of flying left. Would appreciate any insight on the dilemma.

Here are some questions:
- Being Junior, what would the worst-case schedule and platform be for me? I can do anything for 12-18months....I live in a major hub and travel to the world is a 45-minute drive to the airport.
- Is there a reason to choose UPS over FedEx, I am just not familiar with the two in their differences?
- Being near 50yrs old, do age factor in your assignment and choice of airframe?
- What are the major differences between international and domestic schedules?
- As we get older, has anyone said this is too hard on my body and age? I am not too sure I can do the tempo till 65yrs at Southwest 4 legs a day can be brutal --I feel bad for some of the old timers!

Thanks for your time in this important life changing move!
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Old 05-14-2022, 11:52 AM
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Being nearly 50, a few hundred away from west coast upgrade, and living in a major city also... I'm following this thread.

Hope you get the answers you're looking for and I appreciate you asking the question!
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Old 05-14-2022, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by oldboyroy View Post
Looking for some sound and unbiased views and commentary on anyone who has left recently the commercial airlines for cargo, specifically UPS? Money is good and I am home 18-20 days a month, but the schedules and operations are getting worse, and post-Covid manning our operations make us even harder to work for. Lately our operation meltdowns, I feel like I am on the Titanic and the orchestra is playing top deck and the ship is listing over. Is SWA the next Eastern Airlines?? I am not sure, but things have not been well since the MAX and Covid....very reactionary management. I am sure I work harder than any other NB 737 Pilot in America! I get it. But my reasons to come to SWA and life have changed recently. It is no longer the best long-term career for us because it will dictate a move in the next 5-10yrs to a favorable domicile. Overnights are now consistently short. AMs trips are turning into PMs and PMs are turning into AMs. I know I work harder at SWA than I would at UPS, but has it been a "why didn't I leave earlier" once you did UPS vs airlines? I am a couple years from upgrade (to West Coast Captain while positioned in East Coast Base) and have over 16 years of flying left. Would appreciate any insight on the dilemma.

Here are some questions:
- Being Junior, what would the worst-case schedule and platform be for me? That is a matter of perspective. Living on the east coast our ONT 75 domicile would probably be your least desirable domicile due to commute distance and junior lines that would make getting home painful. You would be flying night sort through SDF 2-4 nights a week. Survivable, sure, but the suck factor would be high. I can do anything for 12-18months....I live in a major hub and travel to the world is a 45-minute drive to the airport.
- Is there a reason to choose UPS over FedEx, I am just not familiar with the two in their differences? This can be subjective, but here is my opinion. FEDEX’s A plan accrues faster due to 25 years to max out vs UPS’s 30 year max out. UPS B plan accrues faster due to higher company contributions, but you would have less time for the whole time value of money to kick in. Pay wise, UPS has no narrow body b scale. FedEx does. However, partially due to that, 75 captain at FedEx can go very junior (1-2 yrs) vs junior upgrade at UPS is right around five years. FedEx has better first year pay. UPS is better after that, but not by a huge margin if you are wide body at FedEx. The flying at both is very similar. We both have lots of night sort fun. We both have lots of day sort fun. We both have lots of long haul international. We both have intratheater international fun (like domestic sort flying, but in Europe or Asia).
- Being near 50yrs old, do age factor in your assignment and choice of airframe? You pick airframe and domicile by age. So you would be senior in your class. Odds are you would be SDF 75 or SDFZ 75 (international), unless you wanted MIA, ONT, or A300 in SDF. Unlikely a 73 guy would be in a heavy class (74,MD).
- What are the major differences between international and domestic schedules? It depends. Long haul international is neither day nor night flying. It is both. Some love it, some hate it. Domestic and intratheater international are basically identical, just with different layover experiences. Week on/week off is a common schedule domestically. International tends to have longer trips with more time in between. Either way, 14 days max per 28 day pay period. Some lines will dip down to the 10-12 day range.
- As we get older, has anyone said this is too hard on my body and age? For a variety of reasons, including schedules, relatively few people choose to stay here until 65. The pension and ability to max your 401k/MPP make retiring younger easy to achieve. There are lines here that would kill me. I bid around them. If you are smart about finding a niche that fits you well, this can be a great job. If you are inflexible in your approach to bidding, it can be very tough. I am not too sure I can do the tempo till 65yrs at Southwest 4 legs a day can be brutal --I feel bad for some of the old timers!

Thanks for your time in this important life changing move!
OBR,

We do have a steady flow of guys coming from pax world. You will see a sprinkling from the SWA, the legacies, and other majors. That said, I can’t directly compare the two since I came straight from the AF. I will try to answer the questions I can answer. See my answers in red above.
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Old 05-14-2022, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tnkrdrvr View Post
OBR,

We do have a steady flow of guys coming from pax world. You will see a sprinkling from the SWA, the legacies, and other majors. That said, I can’t directly compare the two since I came straight from the AF. I will try to answer the questions I can answer. See my answers in red above.
Thank you, I have heavy time in the Air Force as well, I guess it is taken into consideration into HVY? Appreciate your insight.
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Old 05-14-2022, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by oldboyroy View Post
Thank you, I have heavy time in the Air Force as well, I guess it is taken into consideration into HVY? Appreciate your insight.
Yes, they take it into consideration. Along with your current type.
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Old 05-14-2022, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by oldboyroy View Post
Thank you, I have heavy time in the Air Force as well, I guess it is taken into consideration into HVY? Appreciate your insight.
I don’t know how they would factor your USAF heavy time, but if you were placed in a heavy class I would recommend the MD or 74 SDF. Financially, UPS will beat SWA easily. QOL is more open to debate and really depends on what you are looking for. Good luck regardless!
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Old 05-14-2022, 09:02 PM
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The famous phrase comes to mind: the grass is not always greener on the other side. Having said, UPS is one of the best jobs in aviation in the world, but our schedules have also deteriorated big time. You will not get 18-20 days off per month here. And they will flip your clock constantly. 6 years is a long time to give up. Southwest isn’t a titanic sinking, it is simply coming back to earth being a middle of the road job. Management is becoming like a more traditional one, as is labor relations. The days of Herb Kelleher are long gone. Doing more with less is the norm now.
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Old 05-15-2022, 08:00 AM
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OP,

I generally agree with what’s been previously stated. Here’s some further opinions:

Domiciles are (can be) a problem at UPS…we only have 4 and none that most people would call desirable locations. I’ve preached this is a good job to be a commuter at, but I can’t deny living in domicile would be so much nicer for so many reasons. I’m taking a guess that you live in ATL? If so, you can stay put. Probably one of the best locations to commute from besides PHL area. Both have directs to Sdf on ups and pax carriers. That’s huge. Anyway, consider this very important aspect especially if you have kids in school. I find the limiting choices frustrating now that we would prefer to live in domicile (but won’t).

Conflict bidding is tasty. Yeah, more of a treat seniority brings but darn, it can be real good. That’s how to get 18-22 cal days off here, though you can’t do it every month.

Vacation language is fantastic.

Health benefits are top notch.

Schedules….they suck. Even the good stuff, sucks. You’re grinding out 3-4 legs per duty period at SWA - try doing that on the opposite side of the clock (ups). Want the good day flying at UPS? Well, you’re still doing multiple legs or transcons and unless you’re doing turns, chances are they’ll mix some night flying into your line.

International long haul (74) is sexy but its constant 24 hr layovers and reschedules will grind you down pretty quickly. You’re not even flipping your body clock here, you’re completely decimating it.

International hub sort (767) can be quite good in the European theater…if you’re senior enough to hold it. Basically doing overnight turns from outstation but works out to be evening flying on EST. Otherwise lots of crap out there and you’re still working even if you are lucky enough to get the better pairings.

Not saying there aren’t gems out there on each fleet, but the overall schedules have been eaten alive by the optimizer.

FedEx and UPS pilot jobs and contracts are very similar. The companies are completely different. UPS is old school trucking company with airplanes. FedEx is an airline with trucks. FX is ALPA and has a 50% bigger seniority list than the IPA. UPS is a more toxic environment in regards to management- employee relations than FX.

18-20 days off a month, day flying, earning decent coin doesn’t sound bad to me. You’d really have to have a good reason for bailing IMHO. Try Jumpseating through our system to get a taste of it. That would be my starting place.

Good luck.
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Old 05-15-2022, 08:55 AM
  #9  
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Our schedules are getting progressively worse and most likely will not change anytime soon. I don’t care what others have said, but these schedules, with a few exceptions, will take its toll on you and have no doubt, has taken years off my life. We are doing more circadian flips now more than ever, so factor that into your decision. If you come here, you WILL fly nights and understand it’s harder than it might appear.
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Old 05-15-2022, 10:37 AM
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I made the switch from pax to UPS almost a year ago and don’t regret my decision
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